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- Hacker News
- I used Sailfish ten years ago or more, and loved it. But I gave up hope on getting it to run on many devices, as well as access to a good Android emulation layer that I could use for "utility" apps like Uber or whatever.
My impression was that this platform was only becoming less and less viable. Other problems: it's proprietary and only really runs well on any phone you've ever heard of if it's on top of an Android kernel with some kind of hardware abstraction layer.
by pxc - afaik Uber can be used perfectly with the website.by prmoustache
- The Android emulation layer is quite good and it runs on many mass market Xperia phones from Sony:
https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Supported_Devices/
It is not using Android kernel - it uses a Linux kernel with android features enabled and compile time & runs Android binary drivers for hardware that has no native Linux driver via a binary adaptation layer called libhybris (also used by some Ubuntu Touch devices).
The Android emulation layer nowadays runs in a container that talks to the Android bits in the kernel and to the blobs via libhybris.
by m4rtink - Many years ago I backed the Jolla Tablet, which never shipped and they never gave me a refund. At the time the company kept pretending like things were perfectly fine with every update right until they let everyone know that the project was being cancelled. There was zero transparency and accountability, and from that day I vowed to never support this company ever again. I would've been fine if the project had failed and they had been transparent and honest about their ongoing struggles with every update, but the complete lack of transparency was too much for me.
I don't know if the values and leadership at Jolla have changed since then, but it's not a company that I would trust to deliver and communicate honestly in good faith.
- I don't mean be rude, but outside the SV bubble, funding is extremely hard and when companies are on the brink "ethics" becomes a luxury you can't really afford.
That's not an argument for not complaining against what was done, but given what they're doing - fighting two Goliaths that have 10000x the resources, I just wish people would give them another chance.
- They still continue to be hypocritical. They claim full commitment to free software, but their entire internal infrastructure is built entirely on proprietary solutions. Every time they invite their community to do something, such as join a Zoom meeting, the community is very surprised by the offer, but Jolla employees sincerely do not understand this reaction.by Soaron
- FWIW, I actually received my Jolla Tablet (albeit delayed). Your are right that Jolla is sometimes less transparent and professional than one would expect. However, I realize that Jolla is also under much more scrutiny by the community than other tech companies, and some people demand ridiculous levels of transparency/quality/features.by raphman
- I'm not familiar with the background here.
There was a blog post committing to refunds given sufficient cashflow, posted in 2017:
<https://blog.jolla.com/summer-2017-ceo-update/>
HN discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14637748>
It does appear that Jolla has shipped other products (SailfishOS, the Jolla Phone in 2013, some tablets, and others, see Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla#Sailfish_OS_products>).
Since 2017 the company has gone through bankruptcy and re-launched.
It should be remembered that kickstarter / crowdfunded ventures, as with any other, are speculative and risky. A good-faith effort to deliver on spec is itself credible, and the landscape is littered with the husks of far more failures, especially in the mobile space, including from former (and current) giants: RIM, Palm, Microsoft, Mozilla, Canonical, off the top of my head). Google and Apple are the only present significant OS options standing, Apple (again) and Samsung dominate hardware, though there's increasing competition largely from China.
by dredmorbius - Not just the lack of transparency, they went bankrupt after the tablet fiasco (never refunded most of the people) and bought by some investment firm connections to the Russian state (not the thing you want from a privacy-friendly product / system) what they tried to keep secret.
AFAIK they have bought by some other company (again) since then, but they have basically nothing. Most of their Sailfish OS is actually closed source (like AOSP vs all the apps from Google), they don't have any hardware, they just re-flash some phone from Sony.
I had high hopes for them, but now wouldn't even touch them with a stick. Pixel with GrapheneOS seems to be a much better choice and maybe even closer to their original ideologies.
by raron - Funnily enough the only viable deployment was AuroraOS in Russia , which they cut ties with after the war started (pretty shortsighted IMO) as the equivalent US ops merely paused their operations with options for future return. I think Google only stopped monetization of play store from Visa/MC CC ban , while maintianing their operations there. Meanwhile the sailfish guys set their largest successful deployment on fire with no recourse for reapprochment once the peace returns. As im thinking the RU market would be drifting more towards Chines tech ala HarmonyOS etc if they want alternatives to Android/IOS.by rzerowan
- Don’t be silly, nobody wants that rep.
- It is a small company in a niche, they were just by trying to survive.
I've not used their OS but have been thinking for a while, and spent some time in their forums. I remember some dev saying this along those lines.
by spookie - It's an open source project that nobody is getting rich off of, so voluntarily cutting ties with the Russian market doesn't present the sort of moral dilemma that TAM-obsessed, locked-down, for-profit OSes worry about.by rchaud
- I suggest reading a bit about the brotherly relationship between Finland and Russia- it has not been exactly a Winter Wonderland.
Not to mention the most bloody war on European soil in a century - started by Russia.
by m4rtink - That still exists? When I first heard of it many many years ago I had hopes for it. Never heard of it again. I see it is still on Qt5.by panzi
- My understanding is that it met some government requirements that Android did not. Niche for sure but useful in some contexts.by indolering
- Qt 5.6 that too. Probably so that they can keep most of their user space closed source.by saidinesh5
- Yes, they've even come out with a phone, but it's only available in Europe[0]
[0] https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
by OsrsNeedsf2P - I am surprised that nobody has mentioned yet the (seemingly) functional Linux mobile OS/device: the FLX1s from furilabs (https://furilabs.com/).
User reviews seem very compelling, does anybody here have experience with it (especially if you can compare with unofficial Android ROMs, Sailfish OS, or Postmarket OS)?
by lejalv - Please note that user reviews are only out for the FLX1, not the FLX1s, which is about to start shipping soon. That said, as they went with the same SoC, hardware enablement is hopefully going to be fine and the software will work as well as on the FLX1.
I have their FLX1 device here, but I have yet to spend more time with it (instead of my postmarketOS daily driver I am writing this on). It's humongous (the s is going to be smaller), which is holding me back - but feel free to ask questions.
What's nice is that it's 5G hardware, and as they use the (4.19 IIRC) Android kernel they have a lot of hardware working which would be a huge struggle on mainline (think photography, finger print, ...). The Android integration via a Waydroid fork is also decent (but 'basic waydroid' is IMHO fine too, the hardware just needs enough RAM), and overall, it feels quite polished and the team is responsive in adressing customer feedback where they can.
by linmob - I have been using SailfishOS phones as my main driver for ten years now. Some random, personal, possibly uninformed thoughts:
- It is not for everyone. Some Linux experience and willingness to tinker with it is helpful.
- Despite the many limitations, I love the UI, the spirit, the platform, and the community. I fear the day where I have to switch to a different OS.
- Many Android apps can be run via the AlienDalvik/AppSupport middleware. However, raw BLE is not supported. Thus, most e-scooter apps won't work. My banking app runs okay-ish.
- Google Play Store and Google Play Services can be installed by following non-trivial tutorials. I don't use them.
- The hardware abstraction layer that makes proprietary Android drivers work with SailfishOS is cool.
- QML and C++/Python/JS allow for easy, rapid app development. The custom widgets have a unique, consistent, simple style.
- As most of the UI is written in QML, it is possible to adjust and extend most of the UI shell and the base applications just by editing these resource files on the phone. For example, one can add additional widgets to the lock screen or change animation speeds.
- A nice tool, Patch Manager allows transparently and reversibly applying such modifications. This is so cool, even though the patches often have to be adapted for each major OS version.
- Jolla, the Finnish company behind SailfishOS is tiny and had to let go a lot of engineers and supporting staff a few years ago. Development has slowed down significantly.
- There are about two dozen very active developers in the community who write awesome apps. There are native clients for Discord (no voice/video), Signal, Telegram, Slack, Mastodon, Hacker News, etc.
- Unfortunately, the browser is stuck with outdated Gecko (despite heroic efforts by a developer who upgraded it from ESR 78 to ESR 91 [1]).
- Only a few smartphones are supported by SailfishOS - either officially supported by Jolla (e.g., some Sony phones and some Jolla-branded ones) or supported via community ports. Often the hardware support is a little bit buggy.
EDIT: of course, if you visit the forums, you will see quite some criticism of Jolla - and some of it is well deserved. It would be great if there were better hardware, fewer bugs, better support for Android apps, etc. Personally, I feel that Jolla is really trying to make SailfishOS better but that they lack really stable sources of income and have made some less-than-ideal decisions in hindsight. The best solution would be to get EU funding for stabilizing the platform and finding a business model that generates recurring income from large organizations. Selling to private customers without being able to extract recurring income and being dependent on badly-documented hardware is not going to work.
[1] https://www.flypig.co.uk/?to=gecko&list_id=975&list=gecko
by raphman - > Jolla, the Finnish company behind SailfishOS is tiny and had to let go a lot of engineers and supporting staff a few years ago. Development has slowed down significantly.
This is so sad and unfortunate to hear.
by KronisLV - I am not a fan anymore I used it for over a year on a XPERIA XA2. It's usable but barely so. The Android layer usually craps out with heavier apps or crawls to a halt. Most of the native apps are really basic I would compare them to early Windows Phone apps in functionality and UX. The UX itself is an odd mix of really intuitive and absolute horrible. It seems like they are missing focus and the felt development stalled for some years now. I hope plasma or gnome get more momentum because this isn't a viable alternative for 90% of smartphone users. Meego was better and I don't understand why they pivoted in the direction they are going now. It's certainly opinionated.
- Man I wish more dev work was put into the mobile Gnome Shell. It's so, so close to being there.by Andrex
- Mhm, this is a proprietary OS developed by a dilapidated company… Here is another OS sharing the Nokia/MeeGo heritage, except fully open source and actively developed (not ready for general use either, AFAICT [yet]): https://nemomobile.net/by remix2000
- Comparing Jolla to Nemo with the argument 'actively developed' is a huge stretch.
Nemo is a great project, but only build by one guy (neochapay) in his spare time.
Jolla still has ~5 full-time engineers and a super active community.
by mrbn100ful - SailfishOS and the Jolla One were good (awesome usability) But the integration of Android was a horribly failure. It is like WINE, half working applications preventing native ports of quality. I left the boat.
After that Jolla failed with the tablet. Then they didn’t deliver a successor device for Jolla One and provided SailfishOS only as aftermarket OS. You remember the Android problem from above? The hardware of others, without official support? That is calling for problems.
And to make everything worse Jolla started a cooperation with Russia in 2015. According to Wikipedia they quit it in 2021.
Hint about compatibility and APIs
Never try to be compatible to an environment which doesn’t want to maintain interoperability with you.
by ho_schi - The android support improved a lot such that all the apps I used worked there.by mempko
- Does anyone know if Jolla ever published the full source-code? The promised back in 2013.by ho_schi
- Proton is based on Wine and is a major factor behind the success of Steamdeck and SteamOS.
Also Sailfish OS Android emulation is quite good, good or even the best one I used on the Android emulation front.
by m4rtink