Join the discussion
Write your take first — we'll ask for email only when you're ready to publish.
- Hacker News
- Pretty neatby jaredXX
- Several years back I lived in Tokyo for a couple of years. I like learning the local language. I could mostly get by with the spoken Japanese (Nihongo). Tried to learn the script but failed miserably. It's a combination of Hirgana alphabets, Katakana alphabets and to top it all 10s of thousands of Chinese Kanji. Loved my stay, very polite people. I think their vocabulary doesn't have the word impolite (polite and less polite). I would say Japanese script is one of the hardest if not hardest.by dd-sharma
- The article is not about the Japanese language, and it's not about writing systems, Kanji or otherwise.by Tor3
- I'm a big user of the shoshinsha mark (beginner) emojiby msephton
- P Plates, Japanby 1317
- > For those who are hearing impaired, there’s the chōkaku shōgaisha hyōshiki, which is a butterfly-shaped mark in yellow and green.
They used a pictogram to convey a kanji pun (chō refers to butterfly (蝶) as well as part of the word chõkaku (聴覚), sense of hearing).
How dumb; at least the butterfly wings sort of look like ears a little bit.
by kazinator - Slightly related cool one that my japanese family explained me is that 'w' was used for 'warau' (aka "lol") in online japanese speech.
And so for "laughing a lot" people would write 'wwwwwwww'.
But then 'wwwwwwwwww' looks not unlike grass.
So now to say they're laughing a lot, they're using the real kanji for grass.
We went from 'w', a romanji used as a shortcut for a japanese word, to a kanji because, visually, many 'wwwwwwww' looked somehow like grass.
It's fascinating how in Japan the approach feels more visual. I mean: we may be doing similar things with our "romanji" (roman characters, as japanese calls them) but it's less common.
Speech / ideas / words: it's really something else.
- I think the fact that these symbols are "not words" is not in itself super earth-shattering. What really matters is whether they have to be learned like words. You could learn the words "New Driver" as a single "symbol", or you could learn the beginner symbol. The advantage of a verbal label is you can understand it without learning it, if you know the system its embdded in (i.e., English); its disadvantage is it's a big more complex and harder to distinguish from other symbols in that system if you don't know the system. The advantage of the symbol is it's compact and can be learned without having to take on the full complexity of a linguistic writing system; the disadvantage is it has to be learned separately by everyone, even those who already know a much more powerful system (namely, writing).
There are limits to both. Obviously it wouldn't be effective to have a bumper sticker that says "This driver has been driving for less than a year, so please use caution around them"; if you lean too much on the power of writing, you make it too hard to quickly identify the meaning. On the other hand, it's not easy to come up with a wide variety of sui generis symbols and still have them be visually distinguishable at a glance, so there's also a limit to how far that approach can get you.
I do wonder whether there is some link between differential reliance on symbols of this sort and the use of alphabetic vs. nonalphabetic writing systems in different languages/cultures. Like, crudely speaking, is it the case that, because you already have to learn so many separate symbols to read Japanese, learning a few more for stuff like "elderly driver" isn't much of an extra load? Or is it the reverse, that because you have to learn so many symbols to read Japanese, they want to make these separate symbols for a small set of important meanings so people can learn them even if they don't know how to read? I'm not sure whether there's a real link here or not but it's interesting to think about.
by BrenBarn - The way "New Driver" hits brain is different than a symbol. Wordings develops much more rational impression of it.by dekdrop
- Very interesting but the comparisons are somewhat US-centric. For example, there is an equivalent to the heart and cross in some western countries which is the sunflower lanyard.by nephihaha
- I don't see anything particularly special about these symbols. Don't get me wrong, I like Japan but while these icons look nice, don't most symbols already speak without words?by 1-6
- My reading of it is that it isn't the use of symbols that is notable, but rather here are a few handfuls of roles that symbolic decals and signs have been given in Japan, most of which we don't have in North America at least. A lot of them are quite smart. Sure, the special badge for the front of a police or fire vehicle is pretty redundant, but it would be nice if we had a universal understanding of a couple of these just as we understand what the blue handicap icon means. I would nominate the best as:
1. The cross + heart one for people with hidden disabilities. This is probably top of mind for me because I have a family member who could use some extra understanding due to a condition.
2. The new driver, elderly driver, and deaf driver. The first one is obviously so useful that we've just created dozens of one-off text decals (clearly inferior, as they have to be noticed, read, and interpreted, rather than just recognized). It should be handed to you along with your permit and made compulsory like Japan describes.
As for the elderly one, it would be useful to tip us off to give them more space, and also to inspire us to think of our grandmas when we see such a car making a mistake on the road, instead of defaulting to assuming the driver is a deliberately uncourteous prick as we sometimes do.
(As for the "if people are too old to drive correctly, we should take their licenses away" argument, let's assume it's been made, and that someone has pointed out the tradeoffs of that policy in the real world that we live in.)
by xp84 - Due to a favorable exchange rate a lot of people are traveling to Japan these days, and encountering these unfamiliar symbols for the first time and perhaps wondered what they mean.
- Yeah. The symbols "speak without words", but no one hears their meaning without learning it in advance. They're pretty and foreign, but not particularly communicative.by zdc1
- There is a general culture that one sometimes sees which treats anything related to Japan as highly remarkable. Ancient Japanese swords can literally cut through diamond like butter by being folded over 1 000 times after all.
- They are interesting for a variety of reasons. One of which is, while some are similar in function to, say, the "handicapped tag" that gets you pick of the best parking spaces in the United States, they are mainly enforced through social convention rather than law. This gives the symbols greater reach than laws, encouraging helpful behavior that can't be effectively legislated. Because Japanese culture is based on social harmony and mutual respect for norms, they're actually effective.
Secondly, because they are enforced by social convention, they can be very abstract which helps to reduce stigma. The aforementioned handicapped sign is clearly an abstract silhouette of a person in a wheelchair, which is very, very on the nose compared to a butterfly, clover, or heart. Similarly, the bicolor chevron indicating "new driver" (which I first encountered as a roll-up item in the Katamari Damacy series) is a whole lot less obtrusive than the "dunce cap" worn by driver-education vehicles in the USA (typically, a large sign or signs reading "STUDENT DRIVER" or similar mounted on the roof of the car). American drivers would prickle at having to have something like the "dunce cap" on their vehicles for a year after getting their license, but if it were an obvious but unobtrusive and abstract symbol like the chevron, public support for requiring the symbol on the vehicles of even newly licensed drivers (probably a good idea) would increase.
by bitwize - What should be viewed as more unique actually is how verbose North America is. Especially in the car part that I know of, watching car reviews online - road signs or even buttons in a vehicle that would be symbols in Europe or Asia are written out.by spaqin
- I always find it interesting to learn about symbols or iconography that a culture takes for granted that would be unknown or even invisible to an outsider.
Japanese heraldry is particularly captivating because of its apparent influence on corporate logo design of the 1960s. Between mon and traditional Japanese architecture, it’s eye-opening to see parallels between post-war American modernism and millennia of Japanese design.
In the spirit of this article, Cabel Sasser [1] once jokingly referred to U+1F4DB as “tofu on fire,” but eventually learned it is universally understood by Japanese people as a child’s school name tag.
[1]: https://bsky.app/profile/cabel.panic.com/post/3lxusfd6f5k2c
For a non-Japanese example, it wasn’t until I visited Europe that the “fleeing man” universally used for exit signage over there would have meant anything to me. You can drop that icon into something and immediately convey danger, flight to safety, etc.
by dcrazy - The common theme for the discussed symbols is consideration for others.
In New Zealand we require a yellow [L] sign on cars with learner drivers (with learners drivers licenses). However I get the impression that other drivers are less considerate around a car displaying the [L] sign.
I suspect New Zealanders are generally far less considerate than Japanese. Politeness avoids a trillion sharp edges.
We also seem to be copying some of the US predilection of arsehole Ute (pickup) drivers.
by robocat - There has been an explosion of “student driver” stickers here in the SF Bay Area. It’s completely voluntary, and most the vehicles appear to be driven by people in their 30s.by dcrazy
- Bullying a car displaying any of the symbols displayed in the article is a ticketable offense in Japan*
*I've never seen or heard of someone getting a ticket for merely inconsiderate driving, but it's there in the traffic law
by skhr0680 - Also in the UK and Aus. It's bizarre that a sign saying "I'm learning, be kind" encourages some people to monster you, follow you swearing, generally hassle you.
(33 years ago, still in my memory)
It's as if they think it means HTFU and then go to hazing.
by ggm - That's nuts. I have seen a car in my city with a sticker that says:
It makes me smile every time. I honestly had a hard time when I was first learning, and especially transitioning to driving in an urban environment. I would say those streets, intersections, etc. were poorly designed, but of course, none of it was designed, urban road designs simply "happen" and people need to just improvise their way through it.NEW DRIVER I'm freaking trying!!by xp84 - It’s funny, because I felt that drivers were the chillest in New Zealand compared to anywhere in Europe, North America or Australia. There are regional differences (for example somebody mentioned Sydney here, which is truly different than for example North from there like Brisbane, Cairns; or obviously different parts of Europe can be vastly different), but I experienced the calmest driving experience in my whole life in and around Auckland. I labeled exactly zero other people as idiots there, but my scale is probably different than locals’. I drove a lot in Eastern Europe and South Italy. Compared to those places, New Zealand is heaven regarding this aspect.by ruszki
- > Politeness avoids a trillion sharp edges.
i've never seen that before, and what a great phrase!
Also, i'm in the US and don't know why this exists, but recently see this all over.
https://www.liftedtrucks.comby jjtheblunt - I didn't find that to the case in Australia, as someone who had L's for far longer than is standard.
Mostly it meant that people gave you a wide berth, as learner drivers are unpredictable at times. So basically, what the sign intends.
It surprises me to hear that about NZ? As I think of NZ, as our friendlier cousin.
Just goes to show that our experiences are always hyperlocalised, and it's hard to actually make generalisations without actual data.
by JimTheMan - > However I get the impression that other drivers are less considerate around a car displaying the [L] sign.
On a related theme - I have found when driving in the North Eastern US, when people put on their turn signal, other drivers will often speed up and close the gap rather than giving them space to merge.
by freetime2 - The logo expressing "Limited Express" is very unspecific, imagine if buses with the Mercedes star cost extra and didn't stop at every stop.
Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them: https://ygraph.com/graphs/roadsigns-20120316T030941-ekrruua.... , or are obvious, whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh...
For example the yield triangle, no stopping and no parking are probably unfamiliar to US drivers.
Meanwhile all Alfa Romeo Quadrofoglio drivers might be mistaken for drivers with missing limbs in Japan.
by netsharc - > Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them... whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean
I mean... Europe had to develop a system that works regardless of whether you speak the local language. The USA assumed every driver would speak English. I would tend to favor the European strategy, though given how we've held out on adopting the metric system I won't hold my breath.
by skillina - The "Limited Express" logo existed only until the railway was privatized, if I read the article correctly. In any case I haven't noticed it, and you know when a train is a limited express - it's right there on the board announcing incoming trains (and if it's your train then you already have a limited express ticket and you know the exact time it arrives). And, finally, there's an audio announcement which says that it's a limited express. But I'll look for the logo the next time I'm at the station, it would be interesting if it's still there. I actually hope so.by Tor3