Discussion summary
Discussions highlight that 24-bit/192kHz audio is common in recording but unnecessary for typical listening. Experts mention that human perception and practical use cases do not benefit from such high fidelity.
What the discussion says
- 24-bit/192kHz is standard in recording studios.
- High bit depths and sample rates are often unnecessary for casual listening.
- Some users joke about the absurdity of high-end audio equipment and cables.
“24 bits is now ubiquitous and 32 bit is becoming the norm in recording studios.”
“For typical listening, 16-bit/44.1kHz is sufficient.”
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- Hacker News
- If you try to use empiricism when it comes to certain groups audiophiles, you are going to be sorely reminded that it's basically the equivalent of healing crystals for a different type of person. 24/192 is useful for mixing/mastering, but completely unnecessary for the end product to distribute for listening.by viccis
- They literally sell actual crystals that you’re supposed to place on top of speakers and amplifiers to make them sound better.by tshaddox
- Even with mixing/mastering 96khz is enough for persisting to files. But as another commenter said, 192 is useful, if you bend and stretch samples!by Aldipower
- 32-bits are great for recording too because they do an incredible job of capturing the dynamic range without having to be precise on the preamp settings. It removes an entire job from the recording workflow.
192 for mixing and mastering can be useful especially if you're doing a lot of effects, especially anything that pitch shifts. But I've seen low quality phone-microphone recordings make it to the master; if you capture lightning in a bottle, it hardly matters what the settings were, what the microphone was, or anything else.
by colmmacc - 24/192 is also great for digital synthesizers--if you're generating a waveform like a sawtooth that has theoretically instantaneous transitions, they can eat as much frequency as you can give them. Running at 44khz loses noticeable high-end content.
Most modern digital synths have already caught onto this and run internally at much higher sampling rates even if their output gets downsampled, but sometimes you run across a vintage plugin that runs at the host audio rate and working in a higher sampling rate is audible.
by evo - What's really interesting to do with all of these people arguing over audio formats (as always happens on HN) is to point a frontier model at this thread.
In a nutshell: nullc, rahimnathwani, zamadatix and vor_ know their shit, and geraldmcboing and PaulDavis are technicially correct but talking past each other. speak_on and TheOtherHobbes are confidently wrong.
And also: 44.1 kHz captures the entire human audible spectrum with room to spare, and 16-bit already goes beyond anything useful for listening. The higher resolution / sample size format is useful for production or archival purposes only.
The two main reasons why you hear a difference between the two formats: (1) it's likely a different master, (2) tiny gain differences in the signal (salesmen use this trick, but it's also easy to do it by mistake).
by kstenerud - Foobar2000 has an extension that allows you to blindly test whether you can tell the difference between two tracks.[1] The prime use is to compare different encodings of the same song from the same lossless master.
It kind of changed me a bit when I ran through 20 lossless tracks I had re-encoded to various mp3 bitrates and realized that even on a fancy system, it can be really hard if not impossible to discern even moderate lossy from lossless.
If you are an audiophile geek, really think about if you want to try this, the reality check might crack your foundations.
by WarmWash - But try out to stream that mp3 from your home server in lower bitrate to save data, e.g. as opus. And now you suddenly hear the lossy encoding.
We store files in the highest quality because it gives us the option to encode the music without audible loss of quality.
by pimeys - The OP is a bit off with their description of why pro audio engineers work in higher bit rates and sample rates. We use 24bit to preserve low level sounds eg reverb, breaths etc and use 32bit float when recording as the headroom is so massive clipping is not an issue (other than of course still neeing to avoid overloading microphones with max SPL - cleanly recorded distorted sound is still a fail). Unclipping 32bit float feels like voodoo - I did a test, recording fireworks & unclipping the 32bit float recordings.
I use microphones that can 'hear' up to 100kHz (Sanken CUX100K) and for film sound design playing 192kHz audio at half and quarter speed the results are very significant, and reveal there IS 'content' above human hearing. Irrelevant for general listening but very important for sound design.
- Have you ever actually checked the number of actual bits your ADC can use? Most 24 bit converters struggle to get to 18 bits.
Nobody uses 32 bit float for recording (to do so is just to capture at least 10 bits of noise, most of that being brownian); its strictly a format for mixing and processing. You don't get any more resolution from 32 bit floating point than you do from 24 bit integer formats, but the result of "clipping" is less dramatic, hence the appeal of the format.
While there is some evidence that non-auditory human sensory perception may be sensitive to ultrasonic acoustic waves, it's pretty weak right now, and somewhat in the "woo" zone. It may turn out to be significant, or it may not. I wouldn't base an audio production workflow that requires 4x the cpu power and 4x the disk space on such tentative claims, but you're welcome to.
- The whole audiophile industry is built on stuff which doesn't make any sense
My favourite: "audiophile-grade" audio players which allocate a single continuous buffer of RAM into which they load/decode the whole .WAV/.FLAC file, because supposedly the CPU "jumping" between "fragmented audio" causes audible "jitter".
Of course, they don't know that what looks like continuous memory to user-code is probably discontinuous in kernel/physical RAM.
Didn't check in many years, I wonder if they created kernel level players to account for that, to have "true continuous memory"
by dist-epoch - The latter is probably true, but the former does actually happen, and it's easy to accidentally do--lossless or not.by bellowsgulch
- audiophiles (https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/turntables-with-pace....) also claim that turntables can be rated on "timing, rhythm, and pace" in which supposedly the timing of the music can be affected by the turntable's mass and other properties.
How this would occur without also producing grossly audible pitch distortion never seems to be discussed.
by emtel - I can tell when my CPU usage spikes because it causes a hum through my speakers, so this does not seem that far-fetched.by billyjobob
- > My favourite: "audiophile-grade" audio players which allocate a single contignuous buffer of RAM into which they load/decode the whole .WAV/.FLAC file, because supposedly the CPU "jumping" between "fragmented memory" causes audible "jitter".
Thanks for the laugh... this is absolutely bonkers. In case anyone is wondering, before sound hits our ears it has to go through a digital to analog conversion, which takes place on hardware independent of the CPU, operating with its own clock and buffers etc.
by lmc - Don't forget: "most players use malloc to get memory while new is the c++ method and sounds better."[1]by platinumrad
- This really is driving a muscle/super car, or drinking expensive wine. At the end none of specs or tests matter. It is a form of art. If it makes the listener feel better (even if its just psychological) then its probably worth it.by Tsarp
- That’s actually a really good comparison, especially because - yes I can hear the difference between an excruciatingly lossless digitization of a piece of music that I’m intimately familiar with, played back on expertly configured hardware… but the difference is so little, that most of the time, I’m find just listening to it at medium high quality streaming on a pair of <$50 headphones.
I’ve played with the nice toys, and they are nice, but for 100x the price, they barely deliver 1.5x the experience.
by mock-possum - Correct. I've paid for Tidal for a decade because I just like the peace of mind that it's closer to the original recording. I'm sure it's mostly placebo, but I like it.by meowface
- I'd distinguish between differences that anyone can detect but some may not care about, and differences that may not be objectively detectable at all. Muscle cars, at least, are different in a way that anyone can see. Push that pedal to the floor and it feels different from a Honda Civic or whatever. Whether that difference is actually interesting or good is, of course, a matter of taste. Whereas audiophile nonsense is often indistinguishable even to the connoisseur and depends entirely on some form of self-deception. Still could be worth it, depending on what one considers worthy.by wat10000
- Well, at least there are objective performance benchmarks on cars, and some of them are okay proxies of performance in motorsports.
https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/carwow-quarter-mile-400-metre-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...
by smilekzs - To expand on this a bit, I appreciate some audio overkill because, if I do hear sizzle or distortion, it eliminates one possible reason and helps me figure out what’s actually happening.
It’s like having gigabit internet to my house: I don’t actually need it, but when a website is slow, I know the problem isn’t in my internet connection.
by munchler - If you can't hear the squeals of the plants [1] in the studio's reception area, are you really getting the full experience of a piece of music?
[1]: https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/30/world/plants-make-sounds-scn
by jerf - Oh great. And here I thought that fantasy literature where forest elves could hear the screams of the plants they stepped on when they walked was just that -- fantasy.by Blackthorn
- 24-bit was created because microphone want to record large dynamic range without gain switching circuit.
96kHz was created to better reproduce 20kHz high frequency, so the digital noise shaping filter does not need to be super sharp right at the Nyquist frequency.
Both were introduced for a sound technical reason. beyond that, most are marketing non-sense to cheat consumers.
by ycui7 - @xiphmont also made an amazing video response to the many responses he received to this article. Using analog equipment he busts a bunch of myths and demonstrates what really happens with digital audio.
https://video.xiph.org/vid2.shtml
or on YT if you can't play it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM
- A classic.by justin66
- One of the best educational videos on any topic ever imo. I can't help but watch it again each time. So incredibly well paced and accessibleby pringk02
- Thank you for posting this. I thought I knew a bit about what was going on with audio sampling and reproduction, but I learned a surprising amount from this well presented introductionby niccl
- The article says "I've run across a few articles and blog posts that declare the virtues of 24 bit or 96/192kHz by comparing a CD to an audio DVD (or SACD) of the 'same' recording. This comparison is invalid; the masters are usually different."
It may be simultaneously true that:
A) Humans cannot tell the difference between 44.1kHz/16-bit audio and any higher resolution, and
B) For a particular song, the best commercially available 44.1kHz/16-bit version may not be the best commercially available version