How to Survive 3 Years in North Korea as a Foreigner

mydiplomaticlife.com55 pointsby chipndale86 comments

Discussion summary

Discussions about North Korea include perspectives on propaganda, regime criticism, and potential military threats. Some users highlight the regime's nuclear capabilities and international reactions.

What the discussion says

Some believe North Korean propaganda is pervasive and question its authenticity.
Critics argue the regime causes suffering for 26 million people and call for intervention.
Others cite nuclear deterrence as a reason for the lack of military action.

“North Korea is maligned by U.S. propaganda, but some visitors have positive experiences.”
— 9999px

“The regime's nuclear capabilities deter intervention, despite suffering of its people.”
— peppersghost93

Comments

Hacker News

DPRK is obviously maligned by U.S. propaganda, but I know several people who've gone and loved it. Famously, the "Boy Boy" YouTube channel guys went and got a haircut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO83Ig-E8E

by 9999px

Why are you sharing North Korean propaganda? There is no such thing as a video filmed in North Korea that is not propaganda.

by quickthrowman

For another interesting perspective, folks should check out Crossing the Line - https://youtu.be/W3L1JemU8hA?is=3SQszuI5s45z7i2W

It’s about 3 (I think? Been a while since I watched) US soldiers that defected to NK during the Korean War. One dude stayed for decades and defended NK intensely in this doc, going so far as to star in propaganda movies against the US while he was there. Wild stuff

by Forgeties79

Seems like every other post from this site is [dead]

by totetsu

The HN and Reddit hug of death is very real. Getting traction on either can direct an overwhelming firehose of traffic at sites that were never designed to scale up because they're minor personal blogs or projects.

by rtkwe

Why do we keep tolerating that regime which makes 26 mln people suffer? Why can't we do Operation a la Maduro there?

by zerr

Two reasons.

Artillery aimed at Seoul: https://atlasinstitute.org/seouls-48-hour-nightmare-from-nor...

Nuclear weapons that can hit Japan (and US bases in Japan): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...

Plus, the quiet part that nobody ever says is neither China or South Korea actually wants to reintegrate a thoroughly brainwashed population. It would be the worst refugee crisis ever by at least an order of magnitude.

German reintegration was difficult enough, reintegrating Korea would be much harder

by quickthrowman

B/c they have nukes

by SmirkingRevenge

Nukes. And honestly man the last time the US intervened in NK we didn't leave a building taller than 2 stories standing and killed 25% of their population. I'm absolutely certain an intervention from us would be worse for NK citizens than their current government.

by peppersghost93

Nukes.

by 9999px

Define "we"

by dikanoflowt

Uhh, because Seoul is a big city and right next door? Is this not abundantly obvious? Also, China has influence here which is a secondary reason

by sokka_h2otribe

The general concerns are:

- An enormous amount of artillery pointed at South Korea. South Korea would likely suffer the worst outcome in any intervention into North Korea.

- A nuclear-armed power who is truly ideological. Unlike Maduro, merely killing the leader is unlikely to dissuade the North Koreans. (a lesson the Trump admin is currently learning in Iran)

by everdrive

North Korean has won, once they had nukes and ICBMs they became untouchable.

by samlinnfer

None of my friends in a Venezuela have noticed any actual improvements after Maduro. The current president was appointed by Maduro and was VP for 6 (?) years. I know some political prisoners are released, but if you are looking at suffering on country-level I don't think anything has changed.

by tuwtuwtuwtuw

It’s too close to China & Russia, whereas Venezuela had nobody in the vicinity that could help respond.

by 40four

Nuclear ballistic ammo… they are insane enough that there non-zero probability they could use them against anybody.

Also comrades from other countries would probably support them.

by sixtyj

Depending on who "we" are, "we" are the reason it exists and are contributing to its stability, never giving a shit about people or any suffering.

by orbital-decay

NK is so heavily militarised and culturally isolated that an extraordinary rendition is likely to backfire even more so than they typically do.

by __alexs

Venezuela was much more like a coup than a military action. The military didn't meaningfully resist, anti-air weaponry did not fire - and the US knew it wasn't going to fire because otherwise there would've been choppers getting fragged left and right. And then we kind of waved off that Nobel Prize winner lady who wanted war, to say nothing of the Guido guy, let Maduro's VP take over, and she instantly become a US puppet but otherwise kept Maduroing along as usual. Interestingly her father was killed by the Venezuelan intelligence services, which was created by Chavez, and Maduro was Chavez's hand-picked successor. She sounds kind of like a Gorbachev, whose formative years were spent under the joys of Stalin. Consequences of bad actions can, and often do, manifest only decades later.

Anyhow, point being - you're not going to get anything like that in most countries. Iran should make that clear enough. North Korea is orders of magnitude stronger than Iran, and Iran is already basically unbeatable simply because they were prepared for a decapitation strike which is pretty much our only card - Americans would never tolerate a real ground war which would entail hundreds of thousands dying. And this is all just ignoring the fact that North Korea also has nuclear weapons.

by somenameforme

The less snarky answer is that our current system does not have a functioning global government. There is no real “we”. Influencing how other countries operate can only be done by force or diplomacy, and because North Korea has nuclear weapons, force is basically off the table, and they’re not interested in diplomacy.

by thehappypm

IIRC, one of the highest profile North Korean defectors said that Jimmy Carter's interference in Bill Clinton's Korea strategy basically gave North Korea another decade to build an atom bomb. After that regime got the bomb, they became un-invadeable.

"Passcode to the Third Floor" describes this instance and other missed opportunities to undermine the North Korean regime.

by hitekker

North Korea is geopolitically useful as a buffer state between the United States' sphere of influence in South Korea, and China. China has defended it pretty determinedly, historically.

by dibujaron

American hegemony is over, better get used to no longer being the world's sheriff.

by jasonvorhe

The South Koreans are opposed to any provocation - any military operation will immediately start a war and the South Koreans know that they will bear the brunt of it. Whether the South Koreans are involved or not, they will still be blamed and targeted as they have a military alliance with the US. Having emerged from an economic crisis, South Koreans are also very wary of a war setting them back. And, like the previous Korean war, China and Russia will also likely get involved.

by thisislife2

If you think US foreign policy decisions are, or ever have been, made primarily on the basis of preventing the suffering of civilians in other countries then I have an Aerospace & Defense Sector ETF to sell you.

Snark aside, the real answer is that in the past it was infeasible and undesirable due to the geopolitical situation with China and the USSR. Any major operation there would have been a Cuban missile crisis level provocation. After North Korea successfully built nuclear weapons, any sort of regime change games like the US has done in other countries became totally out of the question. There may have been a brief window in the 1990s where it would have been possible, but it still would likely have resulted in mass civilian casualties (look at where Seoul is on a map).

The only "good" realistic scenario for North Korea in the next 20 years is that they gradually reform their system akin to what China did in the late 70s, early 80s.

by snovymgodym

I don't know who "we" is, but assassinating or kidnapping foreigners is illegal.

Also, it didn't work. Not in Iran and not even in Venezuela.

by cedilla

Because they would shell Seoul and have nukes [0] and a successful rocket program to deliver them [1]...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...

[1] https://missilethreat.csis.org/country/dprk/ 10,000 km gets you to the west coast and significant parts of the western US, 13000 covers the whole of the US. NK has the Hwasong-15 with a nominal range of 15000 km...

by rtkwe

Playing golf in North Korea sounds crazy.

by orphereus

Why? Because the poor are starving? North Korea has ultra-wealthy ... it works a bit differently but there is massive inequality, and there is extreme wealth.

by spwa4

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Hacker News
DPRK is obviously maligned by U.S. propaganda, but I know several people who've gone and loved it. Famously, the "Boy Boy" YouTube channel guys went and got a haircut.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO83Ig-E8E
by 9999px
Why are you sharing North Korean propaganda? There is no such thing as a video filmed in North Korea that is not propaganda.
by quickthrowman
For another interesting perspective, folks should check out Crossing the Line - https://youtu.be/W3L1JemU8hA?is=3SQszuI5s45z7i2W
It’s about 3 (I think? Been a while since I watched) US soldiers that defected to NK during the Korean War. One dude stayed for decades and defended NK intensely in this doc, going so far as to star in propaganda movies against the US while he was there. Wild stuff
by Forgeties79
Seems like every other post from this site is [dead]
by totetsu
The HN and Reddit hug of death is very real. Getting traction on either can direct an overwhelming firehose of traffic at sites that were never designed to scale up because they're minor personal blogs or projects.
by rtkwe
Why do we keep tolerating that regime which makes 26 mln people suffer? Why can't we do Operation a la Maduro there?
by zerr
Two reasons.
Artillery aimed at Seoul: https://atlasinstitute.org/seouls-48-hour-nightmare-from-nor...
Nuclear weapons that can hit Japan (and US bases in Japan): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...
Plus, the quiet part that nobody ever says is neither China or South Korea actually wants to reintegrate a thoroughly brainwashed population. It would be the worst refugee crisis ever by at least an order of magnitude.
German reintegration was difficult enough, reintegrating Korea would be much harder
by quickthrowman
B/c they have nukes
by SmirkingRevenge
Nukes. And honestly man the last time the US intervened in NK we didn't leave a building taller than 2 stories standing and killed 25% of their population. I'm absolutely certain an intervention from us would be worse for NK citizens than their current government.
by peppersghost93
Nukes.
by 9999px
Define "we"
by dikanoflowt
Uhh, because Seoul is a big city and right next door? Is this not abundantly obvious? Also, China has influence here which is a secondary reason
by sokka_h2otribe
The general concerns are:
- An enormous amount of artillery pointed at South Korea. South Korea would likely suffer the worst outcome in any intervention into North Korea.
- A nuclear-armed power who is truly ideological. Unlike Maduro, merely killing the leader is unlikely to dissuade the North Koreans. (a lesson the Trump admin is currently learning in Iran)
by everdrive
North Korean has won, once they had nukes and ICBMs they became untouchable.
by samlinnfer
None of my friends in a Venezuela have noticed any actual improvements after Maduro. The current president was appointed by Maduro and was VP for 6 (?) years. I know some political prisoners are released, but if you are looking at suffering on country-level I don't think anything has changed.
by tuwtuwtuwtuw
It’s too close to China & Russia, whereas Venezuela had nobody in the vicinity that could help respond.
by 40four
Nuclear ballistic ammo… they are insane enough that there non-zero probability they could use them against anybody.
Also comrades from other countries would probably support them.
by sixtyj
Depending on who "we" are, "we" are the reason it exists and are contributing to its stability, never giving a shit about people or any suffering.
by orbital-decay
NK is so heavily militarised and culturally isolated that an extraordinary rendition is likely to backfire even more so than they typically do.
by __alexs
Venezuela was much more like a coup than a military action. The military didn't meaningfully resist, anti-air weaponry did not fire - and the US knew it wasn't going to fire because otherwise there would've been choppers getting fragged left and right. And then we kind of waved off that Nobel Prize winner lady who wanted war, to say nothing of the Guido guy, let Maduro's VP take over, and she instantly become a US puppet but otherwise kept Maduroing along as usual. Interestingly her father was killed by the Venezuelan intelligence services, which was created by Chavez, and Maduro was Chavez's hand-picked successor. She sounds kind of like a Gorbachev, whose formative years were spent under the joys of Stalin. Consequences of bad actions can, and often do, manifest only decades later.
Anyhow, point being - you're not going to get anything like that in most countries. Iran should make that clear enough. North Korea is orders of magnitude stronger than Iran, and Iran is already basically unbeatable simply because they were prepared for a decapitation strike which is pretty much our only card - Americans would never tolerate a real ground war which would entail hundreds of thousands dying. And this is all just ignoring the fact that North Korea also has nuclear weapons.
by somenameforme
The less snarky answer is that our current system does not have a functioning global government. There is no real “we”. Influencing how other countries operate can only be done by force or diplomacy, and because North Korea has nuclear weapons, force is basically off the table, and they’re not interested in diplomacy.
by thehappypm
IIRC, one of the highest profile North Korean defectors said that Jimmy Carter's interference in Bill Clinton's Korea strategy basically gave North Korea another decade to build an atom bomb. After that regime got the bomb, they became un-invadeable.
"Passcode to the Third Floor" describes this instance and other missed opportunities to undermine the North Korean regime.
by hitekker
North Korea is geopolitically useful as a buffer state between the United States' sphere of influence in South Korea, and China. China has defended it pretty determinedly, historically.
by dibujaron
American hegemony is over, better get used to no longer being the world's sheriff.
by jasonvorhe
The South Koreans are opposed to any provocation - any military operation will immediately start a war and the South Koreans know that they will bear the brunt of it. Whether the South Koreans are involved or not, they will still be blamed and targeted as they have a military alliance with the US. Having emerged from an economic crisis, South Koreans are also very wary of a war setting them back. And, like the previous Korean war, China and Russia will also likely get involved.
by thisislife2
If you think US foreign policy decisions are, or ever have been, made primarily on the basis of preventing the suffering of civilians in other countries then I have an Aerospace & Defense Sector ETF to sell you.
Snark aside, the real answer is that in the past it was infeasible and undesirable due to the geopolitical situation with China and the USSR. Any major operation there would have been a Cuban missile crisis level provocation. After North Korea successfully built nuclear weapons, any sort of regime change games like the US has done in other countries became totally out of the question. There may have been a brief window in the 1990s where it would have been possible, but it still would likely have resulted in mass civilian casualties (look at where Seoul is on a map).
The only "good" realistic scenario for North Korea in the next 20 years is that they gradually reform their system akin to what China did in the late 70s, early 80s.
by snovymgodym
I don't know who "we" is, but assassinating or kidnapping foreigners is illegal.
Also, it didn't work. Not in Iran and not even in Venezuela.
by cedilla
Because they would shell Seoul and have nukes [0] and a successful rocket program to deliver them [1]...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...
[1] https://missilethreat.csis.org/country/dprk/ 10,000 km gets you to the west coast and significant parts of the western US, 13000 covers the whole of the US. NK has the Hwasong-15 with a nominal range of 15000 km...
by rtkwe
Playing golf in North Korea sounds crazy.
by orphereus
Why? Because the poor are starving? North Korea has ultra-wealthy ... it works a bit differently but there is massive inequality, and there is extreme wealth.
by spwa4