Birbla

Discussion summary

A discussion about running Linux on the Atari Jaguar, including boot times and hardware modifications. Participants mention the Motorola 68000's historical significance and potential custom cartridge solutions.

What the discussion says

  • Linux on Jaguar takes about 90 seconds to boot.
  • Some users are interested in hardware mods like custom cartridges.
  • There is curiosity about Linux on CRT displays versus emulators.
  • The Motorola 68000 was historically widely used before ARM.
“It takes about a minute and a half to boot Linux on Jaguar.”
— cakehonolulu
“The Motorola 68000 was possibly the most deployed processor architecture before ARM.”
— hogehoge51

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  • Hacker News
  • > The Motorola 68000

    > Overall, it got lots of traction commercially; it ....

    Before ARM the m68k was possibly the most deployed processor architecture in history. In the late 1990s it was in printers, cars, personal digital assistants, erc, as well as all the home computers, arcades and unix workstations it found it's way into in the 1980s and early 1990s.

    It's sucessor, the Coldfire, could have taken ARMs place...

    Probably this is the reason it's still in the Linux source tree!

    by hogehoge51
  • > Before ARM the m68k was possibly the most deployed processor architecture in history

    My money would be on something smaller such as the 8051 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-51)

    Also, between m68k and ARM there was PowerPC. It got used a lot in embedded systems. Because “the newer the car, the more microprocessors it has”, chances are it got used more than m68k.

    FWIW, Google’s AI gives me:

    - for the m68k: “industry analysis and historical data indicate that hundreds of millions of units were produced across the architecture's lifespan”

    - for PowerPC: “By 2008, Freescale Semiconductor had already shipped over 100 million Power Architecture-based MCUs for automotive powertrain management alone. Hundreds of millions more have since been produced for networking, industrial automation, and aerospace applications.”

    - for the 8051: “according to industry accounts and semiconductor historians, the cumulative production of 8051-based microcontrollers is estimated to be on the order of billions to tens of billions of units”

    by Someone
  • Am I the only one who clicks on these kind of articles holding out hope to see the glimmer of Linux on an actual CRT from composit outputs?

    But it's always just screen shots from an emulator...

    by chiffre01
  • I'm awaiting some screenies from a peer that has the flash cart for the Jaguar; don't worry, they'll get added! I have both the Jaguar and the Jaguar CD but don't have the flash cart...
    by cakehonolulu
  • How long does it take to boot?
    by basilikum
  • About a minute and a half. It varies by 2~ seconds at most. Could possibly be related to how Linux does the calibrate_delay() stuff? (And well, I'm also not too sure on how deterministic it's supposed to be in terms of time).
    by cakehonolulu
  • It should be possible to build a custom cartridge to use some of that 8MB address space for RAM.
    by jdswain
  • Absolutely! You could possibly develop a custom mapper that provides extra RAM (I guess memory bank switching would need to happen) plus the ROM but as far as I'm aware it's not available.
    by cakehonolulu
  • The pro move would be getting the Jaguar development tools with their assemblers for the GPU (yes, the Jaguar had a GPU) and the DSP up and running. With just the 68000 it's kind of a glorified Atari ST as a console.
    by LogicFailsMe
  • I think it could be feasible (Like, embedding the utils), but I'm not too sure how I'd handle the "upload" of the RISC code for the Tom (While at the same time it's driving the Linux console) and similar...
    by cakehonolulu
  • Surely I must have seen someone do this already on Slashdot like 25 years ago. Cheers for using a recent kernel though, that's neat.
    by coupdejarnac
  • Hi! Thanks! Though' I must say that it also helped lots that there's still m68k (Heck, even base 68000) arch code on upstream Linux...!
    by cakehonolulu
  • Still occasionally bring out my old jaguar for Alien vs Predator to try and remember what the excitement was all about, but as to putting Linux on it, amazing effort, but I think I'm going to pass :-)
    by boznz
  • Not that I blame you... in comparison with pretty much the rest of cartridge-based systems, the available flash cart is priced higher (And AFAIK no DIY open-source ones exist). AvP is one of the best games to play on the system, it was future technology at the time it came out.
    by cakehonolulu
  • Wow, i recognized the 68000 before i even saw the caption. That little chip sure powered a lot of different things back then.
    by scrame
  • Yeah, I also have a lot of nostalgia for the good ol' 68000.

    But "little" is not quite the correct word to describe it, especially not when using DIP packaging as shown in the image in the article. Actually, the 68000 was right at the limits of what could be feasibly packaged as DIP. Later 68000 machines like the Amiga 600 used the PLCC version to save space and costs (https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/media/download_phot...). Actually, the Jaguar also had the PLCC version: https://www.the-liberator.net/site-files/retro-games/hardwar... .

    by rob74
  • I think this is very impressive. I remember from eons ago people were running Linux on Amiga, but then it was the later models with 68040 processors with more RAM.

    As far as I remember no one ran it on a 68000 with 2 megabytes of RAM.

    Could Linux today run on an Amiga 500 with RAM expansion, in this same way?

    by bni
  • I've been slowly working on getting fuzix working on my amiga 1200. It boots the kernel I just don't have a file system for it yet. Though my 1200 has ~10MB RAM.
    by roygbiv2
  • The 68040 has a MMU, the original 68000 doesn't.

    Linux can be built to not need a MMU, I have used that on Coldfire and Microblaze systems, I presume this Jaguar port is using it too.

    by rjsw
  • Hi! Glad you liked it.

    In theory it should be possible I think?

    I don't exactly recall the memory differences (Chip RAM vs Fast RAM and all that) but assuming you have enough Chip/Fast RAM and thereabout of a megabyte in a storage medium for the actual kernel binary; I don't see why it should not be possible.

    If WHDLoad is a thing on base 500/500+ then you'd be able to fit more stuff on the "userspace" side of things, since 1.44 megs can't really hold much (And having to swap floppies in the way Workbench does it is not something I'm sure can be done on Linux).

    The main issue I see is that you'd probably need to "free" up memory by unloading Workbench (If it's loaded) and possibly re-configuring the hardware (So it's in a known good state for Linux), but yeah; it should honestly be feasible.

    by cakehonolulu
  • > Biggest contenders are the original Macintosh (And Apple Lisa), the Commodore Amiga series of computers (With varying generations of the 68000), the Sega Genesis/Megadrive, the Neo-Geo AES, Plexus workstations... and the Jaguar.

    Strange that they mention almost all well-known 68k machines, but forget the (extremely relevant in this case) Atari ST...

    by rob74
  • Also, honourable mention for the Sinclair QL (though it was a 68008 machine).
    by UncleSlacky
  • The Sega Saturn might also qualify, as its sound subsystem has a 68000 with 512 KiB of RAM. Running Linux on it might be trickier though.
    by boricj
  • I basically wrote them down as they came to my mind, but I agree. I'm still waiting to find a decently priced Falcon 030...
    by cakehonolulu
  • This is very cool. I thought literally no one else was using/interested in the 68000 support in the kernel. It was actually subtly broken for a long time. I think the fixes I did went in to 7.0 or 7.1..

    I have some potential performance fixes for linuxmd like optimizing the multiplication that happens each time the kernel time infra needs to be updated. Would be cool to see if they help for you too and then get a "Tested-by" on the patch to mainline.

    by nommuenjoyer
  • Hi! Thanks for all your work honestly, I saw the patches and most (If not all...) were necessary to boot the kernel.

    As for the mainline stuff: Sure! May I reach out to see how I can help?

    by cakehonolulu
  • This is a deep dive on what is necessary to get Linux on the 68000-based Atari Jaguar. No specialized hardware/flash carts. All runs within the original hardware vision (2 megabytes of RAM) and gets to a Busybox shell. Linux repository with the changes: https://github.com/cakehonolulu/linux_jag
    by cakehonolulu
  • Might be fun to run this as a barebones router.
    by jambalaya8
  • On of the few things where getting Doom to run on it wouldn’t be that cool. But I love the post, except for the part where you reminded me I was old by acting like no one remembers that thing.
    by tclancy