Discussion summary
A Chinese official was sentenced to death for accepting $325 million in bribes, raising discussions about corruption and the death penalty in China.
What the discussion says
- Some commenters discuss the use of doubles for punishment in China.
- Others hope China will abolish the death penalty.
- Critics question the CCP's anti-corruption efforts given the long time span of the bribe.
- Some express skepticism about online discussions and the legitimacy of opinions.
“Hopefully China will advance to a stage where they ban the death penalty.”
“Is that some new slang or a typo?”
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- Hacker News
- A state should never have the power to kill people --even though I think some just deserve death (like those raping then killing a child)-- because the state one day shall abuse that power to get rid of those who they don't like.
But I gotta say something: if the EU or the US were to kill politicians taking in bribes, there wouldn't be many politicians left.
- I feel like crimes over a certain threshold should include accessories in the punishment, like the Death Penalty here in Indiana does.
It certainly helps motivate them to testify in court.
Strong minority opinion: If someone steals more than the average total lifetime earnings of 10 people, I think the death penalty should apply. That's about 25 million USD
by mikewarot - I'm generally against the death penalty but this kind of malfeasance truly deserves it. Sad to see similar corruption at the top levels of the US.by myko
- Autocracies tolerate corruption because if everyone is corrupt, anyone can be "legitimately" prosecuted for corruption. (At least I think that's how it works in Russia, but I don't know much about China.)by senderista
- That makes sense. Give those under the leader enough rope to hang themselves but only when needed.by ColdStream
- In the West, $325M in bribes is called Monday!by trolleski
- Other details for the official (Yang Youlin) in this news.
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Whistleblower Yang Hai already reported Yang Youlin for his economic misconduct in July 2008. The whistleblower was detained because of the report at Nov 21st, 2008.
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People's comment on this matter around March, 2009:
哇塞！终于有人敢动杨友林啦，杨海好样的。杨友林此人早该除无奈碍于他的势力。除掉杨友林大快人心。Wow! Finally, someone dares to take action against Yang Youlin. Good job, Yang Hai. That guy should have been dealt with long ago, but we were stuck with his influence. Getting rid of him is incredibly satisfying.
不杀此贪官，难平民愤。If you don't execute this corrupt official, you won't appease the public's anger.
江宁有一个传说，谁也动不了杨永林！There's a legend in Jiangning: nobody can touch Yang Youlin!
他的保护伞是谁？Who is protecting him?
希望引起中央的重视！I hope this gets the attention of the central government!
现在社会怎么啦？好多天了根本没人关注这件事？是上层没有看到？还是视而不见？还是怕牵连自己？What's going on with society lately? It's been days and no one is paying attention to this! Did the higher-ups miss it? Are they turning a blind eye? Or are they just afraid of getting dragged into it?
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Since the report, there were several pieces of news about "the investigation about Yang Youlin is ongoing", but no real progress until 2023.
by RandyOrion - Main difference between death penalty in US and China, is in US police officers easily sentence subjects to death and the courts do it with great difficulty. In China the inverse.
For instance, high level executive Bryan Malinowski was executed by the ATF and barely anyone noticed, but if the courts had sentenced him in such way, there would be great outrage.
by mothballed - > executed
He was shot after opening fire, unprovoked, on federal agents performing a search of his home under a lawfully obtained warrant.
by lux-lux-lux - Interesting story. This guy was actually airport director at the airport in Little Rock, AR. He used to buy and sell a bunch of guns and was an avid collector. He was killed when ATF agents raided his home and he responded with gunfire. The controversy seems to circle around the fact that:
* the ATF decided not to raid his home when he was out of town but early in the morning when he was at home
* the ATF gave him 28 seconds to comply with their announcement after which they battered the door down
Given the fact that the agents weren't wearing body cameras, the guy had a normal day job that he'd go to, and that 28 seconds is certainly too short to dispose of firearms it does seem a lot like execution served by way of search warrant. Certainly, I wouldn't be able to let anyone in 28 s after waking up to pounding on my door.
by arjie - It's a shame we relabelled corruption as lobbying. The damage it has done is untold.
One thing that China does should be adopted in the West.
by varispeed - trump and biden both pardoned tons of white collar criminalsby hbd-investor
- I wish India did something like this. A crackdown on corruption and enforcement of existing laws would fix 90% of India’s problems. Obviously I don’t think folks should get the death penalty but something harsh like long jail sentences and tearing down of whatever kingdoms they have built.by dyauspitr
- Doesn't hold a candle to the scale of Heshen's crimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heshenby kdamica
- > he was described as the most corrupt official in Chinese history... Heshen is remembered as one of the richest men in history... His total property was... reputed to be equivalent to the imperial revenue of the Qing government for 12 years.
Damn
by qnleigh - I sometimes see people "celebrate" this, with the rationale that China is cracking down on white-collar crimes and handing out sentences unheard of in the west.
But, are these sort of things just examples of selective prosecution? Would the inner circle members of CCP leadership realistically face the same prosecution and sentencing, if they were to be caught doing the same?
by TrackerFF - The West would benefit from an increase in prosecution of $100M+ financial crimes, regardless of whether that prosecution is fair or uniform. Many will avoid such crimes, even when they might be allowed them by corruption, simply to avoid being held hostage to that same corruption. That doesn’t mean that corruption is a great thing (it’s not), but frequent and capricious enforcement is somewhat better relative to today’s infrequent and erratic enforcement.by altairprime
- At least they try to appear anti-corruption—that's certainly more than you can say about the west.
- >Would the inner circle members of CCP leadership realistically face the same prosecution and sentencing
no need to speculate, it's already happened. Zhou Yongkang who was a member of the Politburo Standing Committee (the highest governing body in Chinese politics) was prosecuted, and up until that point people at the top were considered relatively untouchable. Xi also axed the last to vice chairmen of the central military commission, Xu Caihou and Guo Boxiong, that's the commander in chief of the PLA.
by Barrin92 - > are these sort of things just examples of selective prosecution
Maybe, but they hit the rich. All the selective prosecution in the US hits those least able to resist.
by Aeolun - Xi Jinping rose to power on a message of anti-corruption, and part of the reason he remains in power on an indefinite term is by presenting himself as the "only trusted" person to maintain anti-corruption amongst all the factions.
While I'm sure he doesn't catch all corruption and the CCP overall has selective enforcement, the reason they do have measures like this is in large part because of Xi Jinping's specific reputation and positioning.
by mushufasa - > Would the inner circle members of CCP leadership realistically face the same prosecution and sentencing
Almost certainly. But it's not simple to understand because four things are simultaneously true:
1. Corruption is a serious problem Xi is genuinely focused on reducing through high-profile prosecutions with extreme sentences.
2. Xi and his party lieutenants have certainly used corruption charges to eliminate central party 'Titans' because they got too powerful, got too greedy, or were deemed insufficiently 'loyal'.
3. Corruption is pervasive at almost every level and there's no way most of it can be eliminated anytime soon. In fact, the system relies on it to function as well as it does. The purpose of these high-profile prosecutions is only to reduce the size and frequency of corruption. It reminds officials that stealing half the money half the time can be bad for their health. So they stick closer to taking 10-20% only 10-20% of the time.
4. The sub-1% of corrupt officials who are prosecuted, likely end up being busted because they got 'too greedy' and were made a sacrificial lamb by their corrupt peers to fill the system's need for a few high-profile examples. The 'too greedy' isn't from taking too much, it's usually from not greasing enough palms with enough money (including the provincial corruption investigators themselves). When there's tens of millions of dollars of illicit money at stake, the dynamics become like de facto organized crime mobs and there's always competition between factions. This guy probably knows exactly which rival played the game better and beat him.
by mrandish - 5 of the 7 highest ranking officials have been purged in recent years [1].
It’s not totally clear what the consequences were for those purged or if their crimes were legit but seems like they are all in prison.
[1]. https://www.afpc.org/publications/articles/the-inevitability...
by ianm218 - Xi has shown repeatedly that he’s serious about corruption. As others have noted, some of the highest civilian and military officials have been removed for it. Some sentenced to death.
He sees it as a challenge to his legitimacy and China’s power, which, as you’d expect are the most important things to him; even if you take the most cynical view.
Another timely example, because it is the World Cup, is the Chinese football programs. They’ve been decimated because of corruption prosecutions, both executives and players. It’s a major reason why China isn’t competitive on the global stage, which much smaller countries with significantly smaller budgets can compete. And, yes, Xi does care about competing in the World Cup. Prestige is very important to his concept of China’s honor and global standing.
by tyre - The antifreeze toothpaste people didn’t get away with it, nor did the 3000 pigs in the river people, and nor did that one group of executives who were in charge of a fertilizer/chemical plant that was one of the largest industrial catastrophes in the world let alone China.
If you get caught in China, Vietnam, or Singapore the penalties for white collar criminals is zero tolerance. You can’t buy your way out if you do something so spectacular that you cause the government to lose face.
You might as well go jump off a building or a bridge cause you’re done for.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/china-executes-ex...
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/uvm7oy/i...
by Danox - > You can’t buy your way out if you do something
Not with money.
by pibaker - In the 90s and 00s when I was a kid, being a crook had real consequences here too. Not the death penalty per second, but the die in prison penalty left and right.
When John Meriweather and the rest of LTCM nearly blew up the market they didn't get a bailout, and the taxpayer didn't fund the hole in the balance sheet. The New York Fed organized private money and leaned on all their counterparties to get it done, but they didn't backstop it. Meriweather and the Sheik and Scholes and the rest were wiped out, they worked it off for a couple of years for salary and then skunk away in shame (we had shame back then). Took it like men near as I can tell. I admire John Meriweather a great deal in spite of the scandal.
President Clinton was impeached and very nearly removed from office for (ultimately) consenting but untoward involvement with a young woman (they got him on lying about it technically, but the political will was there because the country was furious about the skirt chasing.
Enron. Accounting that went from aggressive to sketchy to fraudulent (most of it would pass with flying colors today). Hard time. Skilling, Fastow I think just got out like five years ago (don't take my word for the date). Ken Lay IIRC died before they locked him up which saved him dying inside.
Madoff, died in prison. Ebbers, I think he died in prison too.
When Microsoft was gearing up to strangle the web in its crib the Justice Department pulled guys off of terrorists and human traffickers to go take a pipe to Gates until he backed off, he was allowed to keep Microsoft intact by letting the web happen, the Feds weren't asking, he decided to not fuck around and find out.
Consequences for serious fucking bad shit for people who are our leaders work. A people gets exactly what it demands from it's leaders and that's exactly what a people deserves.
Right now we're choosing to settle for a lot less, China is demanding more. Which is why we're getting our asses kicked.
- "You can’t buy your way out"
Absolutely you can. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire thing is fabricated to just execute political opponents that don't align with Xi.
- The smart ones quit while they are ahead and procure citizenship somewhere else (like Canada).by RajT88
- "If you get caught". Do the math on how many get caught per capita. Its like worrying about a random coconut falling on your head. Fighting corruption in unequal societies is not possible because ambitious people born without wealth and status, and constantly bombarded with signals from birth that wealth and status is a sign of success, will do whatever it takea to get it. The Law doesnt reduce corruption. Its just a story like Religion that allows people to cope with a reality they dont control.by bs65