Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

allaboutcookies.org737 pointsby nickslaughter02969 comments

Discussion summary

The EU mandates driver monitoring cameras in new cars, sparking mixed reactions. Some users express privacy concerns, while others see it as part of regulatory trends.

What the discussion says

Many users oppose the surveillance features, citing privacy and personal freedom.
Some mention the availability of second-hand cars without such systems.
Others criticize the EU's broader regulatory approach, including self-driving car bans.

“I want a car without inside cameras, without systems beeping, blinking, nor vibrating at me.”
— lifestyleguru

“Europe is the nanniest of nanny states, it's inconceivable that people actually want to live like this.”
— Invictus0

Comments

Hacker News

> On the positive side, the regulations require the ADDW system to work on a "closed loop" without the use of biometric data. lmfao, the regulations required antipollution systems too didn't they ? Even if by some miracle this is the case for all manufacturers I'm betting my first son the software can helpfully be updated to be cloud enabled once insurances companies catch up or regulations are updated for more safety. Hope you like walking a lot.

by hollow-moe

It's completely idiotic. Technology should be assisting in performing the attention itself, not nannying the driver.

Sometimes there really isn't anything that needs your complete undivided attention. You're on a deserted, straight highway flanked by open, barren fields.

by kazinator

In many EU jurisdictions (like Germany) continuously recording dashcams are banned. Mandating a potentially continuously recording camera pointed at you at the same time is ridiculous.

by jojobas

A mandatory camera and a mandatory modem in every car is a privacy nightmare. The EU does not care about privacy of it's subjects, it cares about control. The US is not much different. It's over for freedom in the west. The frogs are boiling.

by malok4y

There's considerable cynicism in these comments and I have to suspect a puritan bent in most of them. No, no one is watching you. No, these cameras are not here to catch you doing bad things.

The purpose is very clear: reduce roadway mortality by reducing distracted driving. Frankly, I want OTHER PEOPLE to have this system in their car, while they are driving around me. Half of the cars I've driven over the past 3 or so years feature this system, and it is a good one: only occasionally invoked, and effective at observing driver attention. I'm very glad that my family members drive cars with this system.

Now to the privacy concern – yes, that is absolutely a concern. While generally my solution is to have no cameras at all, surely there are other solutions. Car makers have an incredible ability to spy on their customers, and rather than making that impossible by dumbing down the cars, I'd hope lawmakers and public advocates can devise solutions that allow both safe cars and secure data practices. This is not a case where safety in one domain needs to be traded for safety in another.

by arthurofbabylon

> I'd hope lawmakers and public advocates can devise solutions that allow both safe cars and secure data practices. This is not a case where safety in one domain needs to be traded for safety in another.

The reason for the cynicism is that this has never happened. Can you think of a time in tech when a new method that could be used for tracking and spying was devised and then everyone was sensible about it, developed reasonable regulations and it has never come back to bite us since?

It's always extremely easy to argue for anything that increases safety, because then the proponents can propose anything with the justification that their metric isn't zero yet, and then argue that anyone opposing them supports death or crime. But frankly, everything is safe enough. If the status quo was frozen in terms of tracking technology, no one would notice it and decry the lack of safety. Deaths in traffic accidents in the EU are down dramatically since the year 2000. So yes, I don't mind stopping for a bit if that prevents us from descending down a winding path to a place where every single object is always connected, permanently tracked and is mandated to collect, analyze and send out a thousand different data points to keep a tight grip on everything.

by tavavex

Good. The amount of people I see looking at their smartphone while driving, completely oblivious to what’s happening on the road is concerning. I don’t see why that footage needs to be transferred anywhere and GDPR should ensure it won’t be, so no need to spin this as a privacy nightmare cars have tons of sensors already and there’s probably little commercial interest in filming people’s faces while they’re driving so I don’t see what’s so controversial about this.

by throwaway63467

I wonder if they also have a seeker pointed at my face then, because I don't want that shining into my eyes.

by janpmz

That is a good initiative however what ever data is being recorded needs to kept in a responsible and safe manner

by KashifNY

Not to worry, Flock, Palantir, and whoever else has use for it will keep it very safe once they buy it from the car company for $1/driver/month.

Edit: Oh maybe MindGeek too, since some car companies reserve the right[1] to record "sexual activity" in the car.

[1] https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-...

by AlexandrB

It isn't supposed to store any data, just process the real-time feed and output a Boolean signal for whether your eyes are on the road.

Selling it to Flock makes you a criminal who needs to go to prison, but they'll probably find a way around that.

by inigyou

No more "making love" in the car. Sorry guys. That'd be left to Hollywood stunts.

by stanislavb

As a European: Absolutely not. Never, will not comply, will do everything in my hacking power to not be subjected to this.

This is invasive, the others like Lane "assist" is just outright dangerous. Yanking my steering wheel while I'm driving? WTF? The lines on the road, in many EU cities, are mere suggestions. Especially during road works. I've had two times where I almost killed the bicyclist because the STUPID KIA SPORTAGE thought it knew better.

And now I'm filmed during driving? No. NO!

by devn0ll

Maybe I'll get downvoted for being off topic, but when we try to say "EU has too much regulation", this is the kind of shit we're talking about.

Nobody is arguing for zero regulation. But seriously, forcing people to pay extra for their own surveillance in their own car?

by tjwebbnorfolk

Ok I'm a citizen of EU country. I don't consent, I don't agree. I want a car without inside cameras, without systems beeping, blinking, nor vibrating at me. Don't you ever move the steering wheel under my hands. Why I'm screaming into the void?

by lifestyleguru

Thanksfully there are plenty of vehicles in the second hand market.

by prmoustache

We should make an open source one that provably doesn't transmit anything except the distracted driving warning signal.

by inigyou

Europe gave us cookie popups on every website, and now... in Europe you get a camera watching you in your own car while driving.

by toephu2

Guess i'm keeping old faithful a little while longer

by codingconstable

(laughs in American)

by templar_snow

I love driving.

But my 12 lb bucket of brain cells guiding itself, and other lives, is the wrong tool for the job of staying in between the two bright lines.

Self-driving, here we come.

by lasky

What about domestic accidents? Domestic violence?

It is clear to me, that we also need cameras in every room in every home and office.

by elzbardico

Does that mean every car sold must have Level 1 autonomy? Similar to how ABS, Air Bags and Stability Control are required.

by t1234s

I purchased a new a hybrid car a year ago. It is impossible to deactivate permanently speed limit and lane alerts. They are useless, dumb and dangerous if you ask me. Detecting a 40km/h on the highway from a road sign on a near by road it's not safety. It's been a year of touching and correcting touches for disabling these two alerts, of course you have to do more clicks no way of accessing it from a quick menu or from quick actions on the steering wheel. The car works perfectly but this thing is so annoying to me that I'm seriously thinking of selling it. The touch screen is slooooow, when the internal temperature is higher is even more slooow for a ui that should be 1200fps for what it does even on a underpowered throttled by heat waves board chip. I either sell the car of take my time and find a way to hack that damn firmware. This is not the way to go, the way to go is autonomous driving not all this annoying BS

by hollowturtle

The speed limit detection exists on my US Toyota vehicle, but it doesn’t beep or nag, just tells me what it thinks the speed limit is on the HUD, which is nice. Although when I drove through Georgia the interstate has all these minimum speed signs that look close enough to speed limit signs that fully half the time through Georgia it thought the speed limit was 40mph instead of 80mph. It would have been an absolute nightmare drive if it had beeped intermittently for 6 hours.

by wincy

This is not OK.

by josefritzishere

“Your driving data has been sold before” - that was in the US though. Not the EU.

by noja

When FSD actually works 100% (or as close as possible), manual driving will become obsolete, we're 5-10 years away.

how long until a steering wheel is an optional extra?

by rswail

Yeah we were 5-10 years away from full self driving 15 years ago too.

by denkmoon

All these years we heard Germans are anal about privacy.

Is that only when mass hysteria is pushed against internet companies? How are they okay with this?

by tgma

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Hacker News
> On the positive side, the regulations require the ADDW system to work on a "closed loop" without the use of biometric data. lmfao, the regulations required antipollution systems too didn't they ? Even if by some miracle this is the case for all manufacturers I'm betting my first son the software can helpfully be updated to be cloud enabled once insurances companies catch up or regulations are updated for more safety. Hope you like walking a lot.
by hollow-moe
It's completely idiotic. Technology should be assisting in performing the attention itself, not nannying the driver.
Sometimes there really isn't anything that needs your complete undivided attention. You're on a deserted, straight highway flanked by open, barren fields.
by kazinator
In many EU jurisdictions (like Germany) continuously recording dashcams are banned. Mandating a potentially continuously recording camera pointed at you at the same time is ridiculous.
by jojobas
A mandatory camera and a mandatory modem in every car is a privacy nightmare. The EU does not care about privacy of it's subjects, it cares about control. The US is not much different. It's over for freedom in the west. The frogs are boiling.
by malok4y
There's considerable cynicism in these comments and I have to suspect a puritan bent in most of them. No, no one is watching you. No, these cameras are not here to catch you doing bad things.
The purpose is very clear: reduce roadway mortality by reducing distracted driving. Frankly, I want OTHER PEOPLE to have this system in their car, while they are driving around me. Half of the cars I've driven over the past 3 or so years feature this system, and it is a good one: only occasionally invoked, and effective at observing driver attention. I'm very glad that my family members drive cars with this system.
Now to the privacy concern – yes, that is absolutely a concern. While generally my solution is to have no cameras at all, surely there are other solutions. Car makers have an incredible ability to spy on their customers, and rather than making that impossible by dumbing down the cars, I'd hope lawmakers and public advocates can devise solutions that allow both safe cars and secure data practices. This is not a case where safety in one domain needs to be traded for safety in another.
by arthurofbabylon
> I'd hope lawmakers and public advocates can devise solutions that allow both safe cars and secure data practices. This is not a case where safety in one domain needs to be traded for safety in another.
The reason for the cynicism is that this has never happened. Can you think of a time in tech when a new method that could be used for tracking and spying was devised and then everyone was sensible about it, developed reasonable regulations and it has never come back to bite us since?
It's always extremely easy to argue for anything that increases safety, because then the proponents can propose anything with the justification that their metric isn't zero yet, and then argue that anyone opposing them supports death or crime. But frankly, everything is safe enough. If the status quo was frozen in terms of tracking technology, no one would notice it and decry the lack of safety. Deaths in traffic accidents in the EU are down dramatically since the year 2000. So yes, I don't mind stopping for a bit if that prevents us from descending down a winding path to a place where every single object is always connected, permanently tracked and is mandated to collect, analyze and send out a thousand different data points to keep a tight grip on everything.
by tavavex
Good. The amount of people I see looking at their smartphone while driving, completely oblivious to what’s happening on the road is concerning. I don’t see why that footage needs to be transferred anywhere and GDPR should ensure it won’t be, so no need to spin this as a privacy nightmare cars have tons of sensors already and there’s probably little commercial interest in filming people’s faces while they’re driving so I don’t see what’s so controversial about this.
by throwaway63467
I wonder if they also have a seeker pointed at my face then, because I don't want that shining into my eyes.
by janpmz
That is a good initiative however what ever data is being recorded needs to kept in a responsible and safe manner
by KashifNY
Not to worry, Flock, Palantir, and whoever else has use for it will keep it very safe once they buy it from the car company for $1/driver/month.
Edit: Oh maybe MindGeek too, since some car companies reserve the right[1] to record "sexual activity" in the car.
[1] https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-...
by AlexandrB
It isn't supposed to store any data, just process the real-time feed and output a Boolean signal for whether your eyes are on the road.
Selling it to Flock makes you a criminal who needs to go to prison, but they'll probably find a way around that.
by inigyou
No more "making love" in the car. Sorry guys. That'd be left to Hollywood stunts.
by stanislavb
As a European: Absolutely not. Never, will not comply, will do everything in my hacking power to not be subjected to this.
This is invasive, the others like Lane "assist" is just outright dangerous. Yanking my steering wheel while I'm driving? WTF? The lines on the road, in many EU cities, are mere suggestions. Especially during road works. I've had two times where I almost killed the bicyclist because the STUPID KIA SPORTAGE thought it knew better.
And now I'm filmed during driving? No. NO!
by devn0ll
Maybe I'll get downvoted for being off topic, but when we try to say "EU has too much regulation", this is the kind of shit we're talking about.
Nobody is arguing for zero regulation. But seriously, forcing people to pay extra for their own surveillance in their own car?
by tjwebbnorfolk
Ok I'm a citizen of EU country. I don't consent, I don't agree. I want a car without inside cameras, without systems beeping, blinking, nor vibrating at me. Don't you ever move the steering wheel under my hands. Why I'm screaming into the void?
by lifestyleguru
Thanksfully there are plenty of vehicles in the second hand market.
by prmoustache
We should make an open source one that provably doesn't transmit anything except the distracted driving warning signal.
by inigyou
Europe gave us cookie popups on every website, and now... in Europe you get a camera watching you in your own car while driving.
by toephu2
Guess i'm keeping old faithful a little while longer
by codingconstable
(laughs in American)
by templar_snow
I love driving.
But my 12 lb bucket of brain cells guiding itself, and other lives, is the wrong tool for the job of staying in between the two bright lines.
Self-driving, here we come.
by lasky
What about domestic accidents? Domestic violence?
It is clear to me, that we also need cameras in every room in every home and office.
by elzbardico
Does that mean every car sold must have Level 1 autonomy? Similar to how ABS, Air Bags and Stability Control are required.
by t1234s
I purchased a new a hybrid car a year ago. It is impossible to deactivate permanently speed limit and lane alerts. They are useless, dumb and dangerous if you ask me. Detecting a 40km/h on the highway from a road sign on a near by road it's not safety. It's been a year of touching and correcting touches for disabling these two alerts, of course you have to do more clicks no way of accessing it from a quick menu or from quick actions on the steering wheel. The car works perfectly but this thing is so annoying to me that I'm seriously thinking of selling it. The touch screen is slooooow, when the internal temperature is higher is even more slooow for a ui that should be 1200fps for what it does even on a underpowered throttled by heat waves board chip. I either sell the car of take my time and find a way to hack that damn firmware. This is not the way to go, the way to go is autonomous driving not all this annoying BS
by hollowturtle
The speed limit detection exists on my US Toyota vehicle, but it doesn’t beep or nag, just tells me what it thinks the speed limit is on the HUD, which is nice. Although when I drove through Georgia the interstate has all these minimum speed signs that look close enough to speed limit signs that fully half the time through Georgia it thought the speed limit was 40mph instead of 80mph. It would have been an absolute nightmare drive if it had beeped intermittently for 6 hours.
by wincy
This is not OK.
by josefritzishere
“Your driving data has been sold before” - that was in the US though. Not the EU.
by noja
When FSD actually works 100% (or as close as possible), manual driving will become obsolete, we're 5-10 years away.
how long until a steering wheel is an optional extra?
by rswail
Yeah we were 5-10 years away from full self driving 15 years ago too.
by denkmoon
All these years we heard Germans are anal about privacy.
Is that only when mass hysteria is pushed against internet companies? How are they okay with this?
by tgma