Birbla

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Hacker News

I'm disappointed there wasn't more written here about Javascript, and more broadly, the web browser. The browser is the platform of the modern era, and Javascript is the strongest example of a programming language being an "authoring tool".

Web apps carry the weight of ecommerce, entertainment, social media, etc. The fact that those apps are frequently at the center of political debate and pop culture underscores their broader success far beyond the discussions that only developers understand.

Along with the HTML and CSS, the code written for the corporate web is not up to the developers alone. You can't ship anything until it's been through far more review by non-technical stakeholders than the devs using other languages may get away with. Yes the quality can vary, but when it's bad it reveals the dysfunction of the organization in a very public way. There's so much cross-discipline human involvement that the developers are in roles that resemble a bureaucrat more than a programmer.

by sublinear

Hmm. That section about "costs a language must reduce" is interesting when read in light of AI.

Implementation time? AI is a huge win, at least in the small. For a multi-year project, I'm not sure yet. (It is, literally, too soon to tell.)

But for new developer onboarding and team maintenance, I'm not sure whether AI is more of a handicap. Yeah, AI can digest a huge mass of code and give you a summary. It can also create a more indigestible mass of code. Is it reducing that cost, or increasing it? (Again, too soon to tell.)

by AnimalMuppet

Python is a good example of characteristics that create an 'ecosystem gravity'. If you want to do any data crunching, natural language processing etc you might as well use Python even as as sidecar rather than wrangling with whatever libs are available in another language

by firasd

On the contrary, language code is what is "authored". The authoring tools are the IDEs, editors, compilers, etc. that we use to produce the executable application.

by wduquette

Reminds me a bit of a "Comparative Programming Language" class from college. Nice overview!

As noted by sublinear elsethread, surprised that JavaScript didn't get more discussion (though quite interested to read the 189 page PDF: https://www.wirfs-brock.com/allen/jshopl.pdf ), and also surprised that Domain Specific Languages and specialty tools/environments such as Processing didn't come up since they seem one of the obvious end-games of this premise.

by WillAdams

I really like very much this essay, and clearly shows my point of view regarding programming language adoption.

While as language geek I consume everything to learn about what is out there, new approaches to programming, paradigms, mindsets, ways to solve problems, in the end work is driven by platforms.

Going in the direction of using languages not embraced by platforms, means one needs to be willing to do yak shaving adding platform support for the given language.

by pjmlp

Yes, this sound like it is true. But is it good? I mean, if I accept this idea, I start feeling more like a pet living in the house that is my platform then as a human who creates things. Also, it can be inefficient in that the same program or algorithm ends up being implemented in every language. Also, the article does mention that there is some pain in between programming language, e.g., when writing language bindings. I would push this point a bit further and note that we have too many tools and it is extremely painful to have to know all of them. Nowadays with AI it gets a bit more easy because it can help a lot with unfamiliar tools, but still that sounds like a problem that would not need to be solved if it was not created in the first place. Multiple programming languages tend to multiply the number of tools needed. I have been feeling for decades that C++ is a good language because it can be both low level and high level and can therefore take away the need for multiple programming languages. The world seems to be taking a different course, obviously, and in my opinion it makes people less free and less powerful than they otherwise could be.

by cjfd

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  • Hacker News
  • I'm disappointed there wasn't more written here about Javascript, and more broadly, the web browser. The browser is the platform of the modern era, and Javascript is the strongest example of a programming language being an "authoring tool".

    Web apps carry the weight of ecommerce, entertainment, social media, etc. The fact that those apps are frequently at the center of political debate and pop culture underscores their broader success far beyond the discussions that only developers understand.

    Along with the HTML and CSS, the code written for the corporate web is not up to the developers alone. You can't ship anything until it's been through far more review by non-technical stakeholders than the devs using other languages may get away with. Yes the quality can vary, but when it's bad it reveals the dysfunction of the organization in a very public way. There's so much cross-discipline human involvement that the developers are in roles that resemble a bureaucrat more than a programmer.

    by sublinear
  • Hmm. That section about "costs a language must reduce" is interesting when read in light of AI.

    Implementation time? AI is a huge win, at least in the small. For a multi-year project, I'm not sure yet. (It is, literally, too soon to tell.)

    But for new developer onboarding and team maintenance, I'm not sure whether AI is more of a handicap. Yeah, AI can digest a huge mass of code and give you a summary. It can also create a more indigestible mass of code. Is it reducing that cost, or increasing it? (Again, too soon to tell.)

    by AnimalMuppet
  • Python is a good example of characteristics that create an 'ecosystem gravity'. If you want to do any data crunching, natural language processing etc you might as well use Python even as as sidecar rather than wrangling with whatever libs are available in another language
    by firasd
  • On the contrary, language code is what is "authored". The authoring tools are the IDEs, editors, compilers, etc. that we use to produce the executable application.
    by wduquette
  • Reminds me a bit of a "Comparative Programming Language" class from college. Nice overview!

    As noted by sublinear elsethread, surprised that JavaScript didn't get more discussion (though quite interested to read the 189 page PDF: https://www.wirfs-brock.com/allen/jshopl.pdf ), and also surprised that Domain Specific Languages and specialty tools/environments such as Processing didn't come up since they seem one of the obvious end-games of this premise.

    by WillAdams
  • I really like very much this essay, and clearly shows my point of view regarding programming language adoption.

    While as language geek I consume everything to learn about what is out there, new approaches to programming, paradigms, mindsets, ways to solve problems, in the end work is driven by platforms.

    Going in the direction of using languages not embraced by platforms, means one needs to be willing to do yak shaving adding platform support for the given language.

    by pjmlp
  • Yes, this sound like it is true. But is it good? I mean, if I accept this idea, I start feeling more like a pet living in the house that is my platform then as a human who creates things. Also, it can be inefficient in that the same program or algorithm ends up being implemented in every language. Also, the article does mention that there is some pain in between programming language, e.g., when writing language bindings. I would push this point a bit further and note that we have too many tools and it is extremely painful to have to know all of them. Nowadays with AI it gets a bit more easy because it can help a lot with unfamiliar tools, but still that sounds like a problem that would not need to be solved if it was not created in the first place. Multiple programming languages tend to multiply the number of tools needed. I have been feeling for decades that C++ is a good language because it can be both low level and high level and can therefore take away the need for multiple programming languages. The world seems to be taking a different course, obviously, and in my opinion it makes people less free and less powerful than they otherwise could be.
    by cjfd