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Hacker News
I might su combining Proposal A (but only for contributions (to Debian) that actually involve the output of LLMs/generative-AI or that blindly trust their results) with Proposal C (for everything else).
However, in the case of item 4 of Proposal C, there are multiple kind of "assistance" that is possible; not all of them involve contributing the output of LLMs (e.g. the assistance might be to check for a mistake such as if a paragraph seems to be redundant or is incomplete or something like that; the result from the LLM might be incorrect but you will have to decide by yourself what (if anything) to do about it when writing your message). Even if some kind of assistance should not be banned entirely, it should still be discouraged (like the rest of Proposal C says). (Also, there are other programs that can sometimes be used for the assistance; e.g. sometimes ordinary spelling/grammar checking will do (although that won't find that an incorrect word that is spelled like a correct word in the correct grammar).)
I do not use LLM/generative-AI for any purpose, and would not accept contributions including their output into my projects, and would discourage other uses. (This seems to be similar to Proposal A and Proposal C.)
This is a very difficult problem. LLM's don't learn from reasoning about trade-offs and from their personal experience, so systems made with AI assistance stop obeying the unwritten rules of why things are the way they are, that comes from the maintainers' decades of experience.
On the other hand, they can produce and test anything anyone asks in minutes, as well as find security issues that lay dormant at the seams for decades.
There is no great answer here.
by logicallee
I think when we're talking about mature software, LLMs aren't the problem. It's the lack of discussion justifying the change. LLMs don't necessarily lower code quality. They put a spotlight on people "just going through the motions".
When the changes are small and properly reviewed, there's no point in caring how it was done. It should be trivial to write, but difficult to approve and merge.
Projects as significant as Debian should own the fact that they are indeed a bureaucracy and take inspiration from what has always worked long before LLMs.
by sublinear
What comprises “assistance?” Getting Claude Code to find bugs, suggest a fix, but a human actually editing the source files and testing the result - is that assistance? Perhaps this policy is as it says: a guiding principle that the community is expected to follow.
by russfink
> Documentation and translations added by Debian contributors
by rixed
Gentoo chose to ban LLMs two years ago. They seem to be doing well.
by Meneth
> A LLM (...) merely produces syntactically likely combinations of the training data
While doesn't matter much in the rest of the policy, this is a common misconception among AI skeptics. It is not the case for a long time (since RL is used heavily in the training) and a LLM may go beyond its training data.
by hkalbasi
Don't misinterpret this link as representing a final decision. It's actually three separate proposals which will be debated and then voted on.
Proposal A is "expressly forbid any contributions to Debian written with the use or assistance of large language models (LLMs) or other generative AI tools."
Proposal B is "The Debian project allows AI-assisted contributions (partially or fully generated by an LLM), provided the following conditions are met [...]"
Proposal C is "request that all contributors to Debian avoid the use of LLMs in their Debian work" without an outright ban.
by simonw
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- Hacker News
- I might su combining Proposal A (but only for contributions (to Debian) that actually involve the output of LLMs/generative-AI or that blindly trust their results) with Proposal C (for everything else).
However, in the case of item 4 of Proposal C, there are multiple kind of "assistance" that is possible; not all of them involve contributing the output of LLMs (e.g. the assistance might be to check for a mistake such as if a paragraph seems to be redundant or is incomplete or something like that; the result from the LLM might be incorrect but you will have to decide by yourself what (if anything) to do about it when writing your message). Even if some kind of assistance should not be banned entirely, it should still be discouraged (like the rest of Proposal C says). (Also, there are other programs that can sometimes be used for the assistance; e.g. sometimes ordinary spelling/grammar checking will do (although that won't find that an incorrect word that is spelled like a correct word in the correct grammar).)
I do not use LLM/generative-AI for any purpose, and would not accept contributions including their output into my projects, and would discourage other uses. (This seems to be similar to Proposal A and Proposal C.)
- This is a very difficult problem. LLM's don't learn from reasoning about trade-offs and from their personal experience, so systems made with AI assistance stop obeying the unwritten rules of why things are the way they are, that comes from the maintainers' decades of experience.
On the other hand, they can produce and test anything anyone asks in minutes, as well as find security issues that lay dormant at the seams for decades.
There is no great answer here.
by logicallee - I think when we're talking about mature software, LLMs aren't the problem. It's the lack of discussion justifying the change. LLMs don't necessarily lower code quality. They put a spotlight on people "just going through the motions".
When the changes are small and properly reviewed, there's no point in caring how it was done. It should be trivial to write, but difficult to approve and merge.
Projects as significant as Debian should own the fact that they are indeed a bureaucracy and take inspiration from what has always worked long before LLMs.
by sublinear - What comprises “assistance?” Getting Claude Code to find bugs, suggest a fix, but a human actually editing the source files and testing the result - is that assistance? Perhaps this policy is as it says: a guiding principle that the community is expected to follow.by russfink
I wonder what fraction of Trixie already violates this requirement of the first proposal...> Documentation and translations added by Debian contributorsby rixed- Gentoo chose to ban LLMs two years ago. They seem to be doing well.by Meneth
- > A LLM (...) merely produces syntactically likely combinations of the training data
While doesn't matter much in the rest of the policy, this is a common misconception among AI skeptics. It is not the case for a long time (since RL is used heavily in the training) and a LLM may go beyond its training data.
by hkalbasi - Don't misinterpret this link as representing a final decision. It's actually three separate proposals which will be debated and then voted on.
Proposal A is "expressly forbid any contributions to Debian written with the use or assistance of large language models (LLMs) or other generative AI tools."
Proposal B is "The Debian project allows AI-assisted contributions (partially or fully generated by an LLM), provided the following conditions are met [...]"
Proposal C is "request that all contributors to Debian avoid the use of LLMs in their Debian work" without an outright ban.
by simonw