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Hacker News
[dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49024436
>The government has countered that they were not required to produce a warrant because Tunick had not yet been granted permission to enter the US.
But he's a US citizen? Do US citizens need permission to be in their country? Where else would they be if not granted?
US border thinking seems insane
by Havoc
There are so many peculiar things here, I - as not an US citizen - don't understand:
If the border isn't "US soil" then what jurisdiction is it?
How come American forces can seize goods if that's not US? What prevents them from trying the same, e.g. in Europe or Australia?
Also I find the law penalizing people who might deprive state of evidence especially odd. In (AFAIK) most of the Europe there's no self indictment, so destroying any kind of evidence that might get you indicted is fair game and you can't get penalized by such fact alone.
And of all of it the fact that US government is pulling this stuff on US citizens is unbelievable.
No idea, might be only me, but I start to perceive US more and more as a totalitarian state.
by xlii
Disturbing to hear that even as an American citizen I only have rights when I'm on the ground in specific sovereign territory, of which the border (which is obviously American soil) is exempted.
With respect to the phone, I'd say one has the right to delete everything on one's phone at any time. There is no evidence that the person in question was "destroying evidence" because there was no evidence - or suspicion, or charges, or anything substantive.
I think the authorities just got ticked off by the duress password, and they're flinging mud.
by stevenalowe
I expect this that the case is going to get dismissed on technical grounds without addressing the core issue. If you are not directly charged with the specific offense, what is the limit of "destroying evidence" as its own crime?
- If I rob a bank and then burn all of my planning materials after the crime - did I destroy evidence?
- If I rob a bank, the police question me but do not charge me with anything. I then burn all of the planning materials - did I destroy evidence?
- If I rob a bank, the police have a warrant to search my house in relation to an unrelated insurance scam across the street. Then I burn all of my bank heist materials - did I destroy evidence?
If I have a dash-cam in my car and it records me speeding - am I not allowed to overwrite the old footage? What if that dash-cam footage is the only thing that proves a crime were committed? Now I am forced to let my possessions testify against me.
by 3eb7988a1663
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- Hacker News
- [dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49024436
- >The government has countered that they were not required to produce a warrant because Tunick had not yet been granted permission to enter the US.
But he's a US citizen? Do US citizens need permission to be in their country? Where else would they be if not granted?
US border thinking seems insane
by Havoc - There are so many peculiar things here, I - as not an US citizen - don't understand:
If the border isn't "US soil" then what jurisdiction is it?
How come American forces can seize goods if that's not US? What prevents them from trying the same, e.g. in Europe or Australia?
Also I find the law penalizing people who might deprive state of evidence especially odd. In (AFAIK) most of the Europe there's no self indictment, so destroying any kind of evidence that might get you indicted is fair game and you can't get penalized by such fact alone.
And of all of it the fact that US government is pulling this stuff on US citizens is unbelievable.
No idea, might be only me, but I start to perceive US more and more as a totalitarian state.
by xlii - Disturbing to hear that even as an American citizen I only have rights when I'm on the ground in specific sovereign territory, of which the border (which is obviously American soil) is exempted.
With respect to the phone, I'd say one has the right to delete everything on one's phone at any time. There is no evidence that the person in question was "destroying evidence" because there was no evidence - or suspicion, or charges, or anything substantive.
I think the authorities just got ticked off by the duress password, and they're flinging mud.
by stevenalowe - I expect this that the case is going to get dismissed on technical grounds without addressing the core issue. If you are not directly charged with the specific offense, what is the limit of "destroying evidence" as its own crime?
When the police are "just having a chat" and you later destroy all of your papers which might have been linked to a crime - isn't that fully within my rights to destroy my property? When do I have an explicit requirement to maintain my effects so the state can use it against me?- If I rob a bank and then burn all of my planning materials after the crime - did I destroy evidence? - If I rob a bank, the police question me but do not charge me with anything. I then burn all of the planning materials - did I destroy evidence? - If I rob a bank, the police have a warrant to search my house in relation to an unrelated insurance scam across the street. Then I burn all of my bank heist materials - did I destroy evidence?If I have a dash-cam in my car and it records me speeding - am I not allowed to overwrite the old footage? What if that dash-cam footage is the only thing that proves a crime were committed? Now I am forced to let my possessions testify against me.
by 3eb7988a1663