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Hacker News
I agree that there's a lot to be desired in the pedagogy of music theory, but this is pretty bad. There are so many little things wrong with it that if I started trying to address them all I'd be here forever.
Anybody interested in this stuff would be better off with something like Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale (https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/ttss.html) or Music a Mathematical Offering (https://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/d.j.benson/pages/html/maths-mus...)
by BigTTYGothGF
I only skimmed the article. There's a lot of good stuff (debunking a lot of classical harmony) but they miss some important things too.
There's nothing about repetition. Repetition legitimizes.
Our brain is really good at pattern recognition, and as soon as it can predict something you're more than half way there to make it sound good. There's plenty of chromaticism that works because the brain "gets" the sense of direction.
by toolslive
The logic that something sounds worse simply by combining dissonant notes is questionable, because music constantly combines elements—notes, chords, even different rhythms—without that necessarily implying displeasure for the listener. Convincing.
by okzgn
I personally consider this to be a better intro, albeit in video form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCsl6ZcY9ag
This is a more recent paper (2019) that I think is better constructed and more aware of the in-field work than TFA:
There are much better overviews of this from Sethares and Tymoczko.
Consonance is somewhat frequency-dependent. For more, Google Critical Band and ERB.
The happy/sad idea is pretty much a high-school oversimplification. It's true for beginners, not at all true beyond that.\
It's quite rare to find music with straight major and/or minor triads with no other colours.
The central insight (consonance involves both physical properties of sound and active perceptual pattern recognition) is interesting, but as a musician I see the following issue: the harmonic series can motivate certain local sonorities, but it cannot generate the operative grammar of common-practice Western harmony; the paper recognizes the tuning problem, yet treats it as a regrettable engineering compromise, when it is actually constitutive of the harmonic system it claims to explain.
by Rochus
I studied harmony and music analysis many years ago as a piano performance major in school. One thing I will say is that harmony really is not an abstract set of symbols on a page representing chords, but rather is a taxonomy of common specific sequences of simultaneously sounding pitches, abstracting away instruments or larger structural considerations and providing a dictionary that defines the most common patterns. Here's an example: Perhaps you're familiar with the idea of major and minor, but you might be unfamiliar with a Picardy third, where a composition is in a minor ("sad") key throughout but ends in that same pitch but on a major ("happy") chord. J.S. Bach used Picardy thirds regularly to end his compositions, but the Picardy third became rarer after Bach's death. Still, it's a beautiful and striking harmonic progression that continues to appear now and then. And now you know EXACTLY why that 1967 song by the Turtles, "Happy Together", has that really nice and memorable ending; that's a modern pop example of a Picardy third. Again, harmony is not abstract; it's the names musicians have given for specific sequential combinations, many of which have been named centuries ago. It's not about nicer or worse; sounds are sounds, but some are combined more often than others and those combined most frequently have well-known names that can be used to explain concisely the "harmonic" aspect of a piece of music.
by simonreiff
I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics. Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect. It then becomes part of what you expect in the future and music evolves.
Ultimately minor sounds sad because it's been used that way for a long time and it's what we expect. I was listening to Trout Mask Replica and my wife said it sounded like her home town funeral music (I later heard some myself and yeah she was right) - Captain Beefheart doesn't sound sad to me, but it does to her. The funeral music uses major 5 note scale.
And on "But I've Been a Musician All My Life / Studied Music In College and I've Never Heard Any of This Before!" - ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee. This article is good for the objective parts, but really self-congratulating for the subjective/experiential part of it.
by klik99
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- Hacker News
- I agree that there's a lot to be desired in the pedagogy of music theory, but this is pretty bad. There are so many little things wrong with it that if I started trying to address them all I'd be here forever.
Anybody interested in this stuff would be better off with something like Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale (https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/ttss.html) or Music a Mathematical Offering (https://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/d.j.benson/pages/html/maths-mus...)
by BigTTYGothGF - I only skimmed the article. There's a lot of good stuff (debunking a lot of classical harmony) but they miss some important things too. There's nothing about repetition. Repetition legitimizes. Our brain is really good at pattern recognition, and as soon as it can predict something you're more than half way there to make it sound good. There's plenty of chromaticism that works because the brain "gets" the sense of direction.by toolslive
- The logic that something sounds worse simply by combining dissonant notes is questionable, because music constantly combines elements—notes, chords, even different rhythms—without that necessarily implying displeasure for the listener. Convincing.by okzgn
- I personally consider this to be a better intro, albeit in video form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCsl6ZcY9ag
This is a more recent paper (2019) that I think is better constructed and more aware of the in-field work than TFA:
- There are much better overviews of this from Sethares and Tymoczko.
Consonance is somewhat frequency-dependent. For more, Google Critical Band and ERB.
The happy/sad idea is pretty much a high-school oversimplification. It's true for beginners, not at all true beyond that.\
It's quite rare to find music with straight major and/or minor triads with no other colours.
- The central insight (consonance involves both physical properties of sound and active perceptual pattern recognition) is interesting, but as a musician I see the following issue: the harmonic series can motivate certain local sonorities, but it cannot generate the operative grammar of common-practice Western harmony; the paper recognizes the tuning problem, yet treats it as a regrettable engineering compromise, when it is actually constitutive of the harmonic system it claims to explain.by Rochus
- I studied harmony and music analysis many years ago as a piano performance major in school. One thing I will say is that harmony really is not an abstract set of symbols on a page representing chords, but rather is a taxonomy of common specific sequences of simultaneously sounding pitches, abstracting away instruments or larger structural considerations and providing a dictionary that defines the most common patterns. Here's an example: Perhaps you're familiar with the idea of major and minor, but you might be unfamiliar with a Picardy third, where a composition is in a minor ("sad") key throughout but ends in that same pitch but on a major ("happy") chord. J.S. Bach used Picardy thirds regularly to end his compositions, but the Picardy third became rarer after Bach's death. Still, it's a beautiful and striking harmonic progression that continues to appear now and then. And now you know EXACTLY why that 1967 song by the Turtles, "Happy Together", has that really nice and memorable ending; that's a modern pop example of a Picardy third. Again, harmony is not abstract; it's the names musicians have given for specific sequential combinations, many of which have been named centuries ago. It's not about nicer or worse; sounds are sounds, but some are combined more often than others and those combined most frequently have well-known names that can be used to explain concisely the "harmonic" aspect of a piece of music.by simonreiff
- I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics. Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect. It then becomes part of what you expect in the future and music evolves.
Ultimately minor sounds sad because it's been used that way for a long time and it's what we expect. I was listening to Trout Mask Replica and my wife said it sounded like her home town funeral music (I later heard some myself and yeah she was right) - Captain Beefheart doesn't sound sad to me, but it does to her. The funeral music uses major 5 note scale.
And on "But I've Been a Musician All My Life / Studied Music In College and I've Never Heard Any of This Before!" - ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee. This article is good for the objective parts, but really self-congratulating for the subjective/experiential part of it.
by klik99