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- Hacker News
- "Latency" is my answer to the Fermi Paradox.
As species become more intelligent, develop digital technologies, and their equivalent of the Internet, they become interconnected.
Interconnectivity is limited by the speed of light. Even here in Australia, the "lag" is very palpable. Conversely, whenever I visit the US, suddenly every web site provide instant satisfaction instead of frustrating delays.
As the speed of artificial intelligence increases, these delays become exponentially limiting. There's a point where you want to be in the same city, or even the same data centre as everything and everybody else. (US-East-1 comes to mind.)
Why would anyone voluntarily isolate themselves from the interconnected web, separated by positively glacial light-minutes, hours, or... gasp... centuries!
If the speed of light is an insurmountable barrier, then nobody in their right mind[1] would cut themselves off like this, from everything and everyone else.
Even huge "generational ships" would be like... a small rural country town compared to a glittering, vibrant city. No matter how much static information you crammed into its computers, no matter how much entertainment you brought with you, it would be less than that available on the home planet.
It's simple incentives: Why would anyone choose solipsism and isolation, at huge cost and risk, for effectively zero upside!?
Space is not the wild west. There are no prairies, no fertile lands, no rivers to fish. Certainly not in the relative sense compared to the towering cultural edifice that a multi-million-year-old civilisation could build up on their home planet.
Imagine being an artist, or a performer working at some cultural centre of the world like Broadway moving into the middle of totally empty desert.
"Woo! Isolation! No crowds! No fellow performers! No money! Yay! Finally!" -- said nobody ever.
[1] The corollary is that any members of a species willing to head out into the vast cold uncaring abyss of deep space are insane to a significant degree. Space is filled by crazy, dangerous aliens. The sane ones stayed at home!
by jiggawatts - Cognitive geocentrism. How does a physical system transition into intelligence?by soupspaces
- i think the answer is the unlikelihood of having life get started in the first place, we have a better idea of how life evolves than how it began. i think the reason it happened so early on earth's history isn't because it is common, but because something about the conditions of the early earth was uniquely well suited for it to happenby 22122
- Starting so rapidly after there was water on Earth's surface, and probably starting on Mars very rapidly as well, mitigates against this view.by bediger4000
- Diaspora by Greg Egan is a good book related to some of the themes I see in the comments, such as the whether an advanced civilization would even want to expand.by pseudobry
- There is no paradox because they are here already. Here she is:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3040110/Outsider/
Made for the HN crowd :)
by gxd - the assumption appears to be that intelligent life would wish to expand. the expansion drive makes sense for purely biological life as it arose by natural evolution, technologically advanced life isn't going to stay purely biological for long however.
interstellar expansion is going to be a huge hassle, at a minimum you are going to be mass constrained and require a long period of investment in fuel (such as antimatter production) during which your competitors that chose to stay in the solar system will gain an edge and may strike before you leave. there isn't going to be MAD in space once you no longer rely on your planet of origin for anything truly important.
we should actually be deeply worried about the space race, because the early adopters will be making nukes out there and may come back to yank up the ladders.
by teravor - Sample size of 1 but I tend to think something like Prokaryotes is common. I'd bet money that it either did or does exist on Mars. Eukaryotes will be much much less common for reasons that I do not understand and we'll never find intelligent life (or it won't find us) because the distances are too great and the probabilities too small.
- There could be billions of intelligent civilizations in the visible universe, and we could still be effectively alone, given there are hundreds of billions of galaxies. The Grabby Alien solution argues that we're still early for such civilizations, because otherwise the grabby ones would have expanded and taken up all the real estate. Since we see no evidence for that, we must have arisen early while there's still plenty of available space (they can still be out there, just very far away).by goatlover
- >Earth's television and radio broadcasts would only be detectable at distances up to 0.3 light-years, less than 1/10 the distance to the nearest star.
This is what I always thought was one of the major problems - unless an alien civilization is directly targeting Earth, we would never detect them. And our EM emissions are too weak to be detected by other aliens unless they stumble near us for some reason.
- Not so:
They found that airport radar systems, which sweep the skies for airplanes, send out a combined radio signal of 2×1015 watts. That’s enough for telescopes comparable to the Green Bank Telescope in West Virginia to pick up as far as 200 light-years away. [0]
200 ly is about 100k stars
[0]: https://earthsky.org/space/airport-radar-could-signal-earth-...
by WithinReason - Almost 20 years ago I did some calculations for a theoretical spacecraft traveling away from Earth with an Arecibo-sized receiver pointed toward home[1]. I found that omnidirectional radio emissions--by far the most common kind we emit--AM/FM radio, UHF television, etc--would be lost in static between Jupiter and Saturn.
In short, the universe could be teeming with intelligent, radio-communicating species, but we will never know it unless we a) build an enormous radio telescope larger than the Earth; b) get lucky enough to pass through a direct hit from a narrow radio signal such as radar; or c) a civilization detects us and points a tight message in our direction.
[1] https://www.damninteresting.com/space-radio-more-static-less...
- I love your site. I've been an RSS subscriber for a long time, and tossed some money at the recent fundraiser.
(I mention that last bit not to be thanked, but to give others an opportunity to do the same without it looking like you're soliciting: https://www.damninteresting.com/a-possible-future/)
by pavel_lishin - Heretical view: intelligent alien life is everywhere swimming around us. We are just not capable of really understanding it. When a human walks past an ant, maybe the ant senses the shadow and the blockage of the sun.. but it isn't equipped to recognize the human. Likewise, I suspect we are in a similar situation where even our smartest minds and best scientifically advanced sensors are simply incapable of properly detecting these forms. Remember, the average age difference between planets in our galaxy is roughly 2 billion years... just imagine that an alien life 2 billion years older than humans have found easier ways to travel than little metal flying saucers. The question then may be if it's ever possible for us to sense these higher (plausibly extra dimensional) creatures. I suspect this will be a more fruitful direction to investigate rather than assuming we just happen to be the only exotic intelligent life in the galaxy.by jadbox
- Most likely view ...We are so primitive we are like Sentinel Island. Nobody allowed to land here under severe penalties of the Galactic Council.
They were going to upgrade us to a class B-1 civilization, but that was stopped after a second audit looked at the Politicians we have been electing....
by root-parent - Signal One is a free movie on Youtube that explores this idea along with the Dark Forest. I thought it was pretty interesting.
One problem with the idea is that not all aliens will be that advanced, and some of them should be detectable if they're that common, unless the super advanced aliens precluded their existence by being first.
by goatlover