Join the discussion
Write your take first — we'll ask for email only when you're ready to publish.
- Hacker News
- This is absolutely insane. This is the most inefficient way imaginable to deploy solar power.
We could deploy 100x the capacity $/Wh with utility-scale farms. Unfortunately we are just completely failing on basic coordination problems like this in the west, every man for himself.
by plantain - Nothing about this prevents utility solarby AndrewDucker
- People buying panels with their own money doesn't take away dollars from utility solar.by triceratops
- It is inefficient in the grand scheme of things yes. But it is very efficient on the level of the individual home owner, especially if they do not own the building so cannot install solar. It is a good way to cheaply reduce the cost of electricity.
Yes, installing the solar power globally, and getting a globally connected grid would be more efficient in terms of solar panels/kW(h). But alas, that also requires a lot more infrastructure.
In the mean time this can reduce the energy bill for many people. Especially, if tied to a battery. It is not intended to provide independence, for that you need a lot more capacity.
by spockz - There was a carport fire in my building back in the 90's. The firefighters got all set up to turn their hoses on it but did not actually start using water to fight the fire until the utility guy from the city arrived to de-energize the supply from a nearby vault.
How does that safety protocol work when the electrical connections and supplies are distributed around the house and may be inaccessible due to fire?
by CodeWriter23 - The device looks for an existing signal from the grid, and if it doesn't find it, it stops feeding power. It even waits for 3-5 minutes before trying again plus some random jitter to avoid thundering herd. It's been a standard in Europe for a while and now finally in the US. This of course depends on the utility and state as not all of them have adopted it but it's quickly becoming the standard everywhere.
IEEE 1547 (interconnection behavior), UL 1741 (inverter product safety), UL 3700 (plug-in solar). (also there are newer revisions you need of some standards like UL 1741)
by 0xbadcafebee - Maybe the fact that these panels are legal around the world and soon will be legal in a number of US states should be a sign to you that this is not a relevant concern.by KennyBlanken
- companies that sell plug-in systems argue that safety risks are minimal or nonexistent. Mr. Scherer of Craftstrom said his company’s systems would not shock electrical workers because they shut off automatically within one second of a power disruption or grid outage.
Mr. Boyce of UL Solutions said his company would certify panels only if they did not pose a risk to consumers or utility workers.
by Vortigaunt - I imagine the solar panel will detect when the circuit it is plugged in to is de-energised and stop supplying supplemental power to it.by InsomniacL
- In Germany, where this kind of plug-in solar panels is very common (1.5 GW installed power) it is mandatory that the inverter powers itself down as soon as the grid is offline/disconnected. It has to be so fast that you can savely touch the plug after unplugging it. I guess it's standard everywhere.by micw
- This is in my opinion a bad solution to the problem of expensive energy or renewable transition. Having individuals start managing their power via plugin solar and plugin batteries creates a gap between the people who can afford it and those who cant. The people who cant afford it end up paying more for electricity.
A better solution is to do this on a local or federal government level and build the required amount of power.
by AuthAuth - How would this make it more expensive for people who can't?by AndrewDucker
- If demand decreases then that can cause energy to become cheaper.by argentinian
- Plugin solar is really cheap though. It's possible the price of an 800W kit drops to $200. That's really not a lot for something that could pay for itself in a year and keep saving you money for years to come.
Then there's the prospect of the price dropping even lower in the next few years. Imagine 800w kits for $100. How can you ignore something like that?
by Lio - You basically kill any momentum of that happening in any reasonable timeframe the minute you said government.
In Australia there’s a ridiculous amount of household solar & now battery being installed. Despite all the attempts by companies/governments to do something, they just keep getting in the way of themselves.
I’m glad the option exists for people to go their own, that of course puts the bar at the individuals finances.
by grebc - I dont understand it. If most grid capacity is already installed, the people who don't build their own little island with solar and batteries end up being shrinking demand against a pool of fixed supply. Meaning their bills probably decrease.
There is the hiccup of universal distribution which needs regular maintenance, and is separate from electrical supply. But if this is remediated by charging solar owners base fees/connection fees, or if grid maintenance is only minority portion of electric utility bills (in the US it's about 40% with electricity production being 60%), the direction should still be poorer people proportionally benefitting.
by missedthecue - Energy is expensive due because demand exceeds supply. Individuals generating their own energy are increasing supply.
This is different from net metering at retail rates, which arguably does move costs from richer ratepayers to poorer ones.
by triceratops - Anyone have good suggestions for stands for 2-4 panels?by sixothree
- One thing I've read is that if you can dual sided panels mounted on a frame over white gravel and really boost secondary feed as much as 20 to 30%.
If they're mounted on a roof then obviously you can't benefit from that so it would be cheaper to go with single sided panels.
by Lio - Which are the high quality chinese brands of plug-in panels?by neves
- I've seen Ecoflow mentioned on YouTube but I don't know how reliable that is.by Lio
- Let's just point out that it isn't about the line workers, it is about raising prices on consumers.
They'll replace the line worker at the drop of a hat, and fight tooth and nail to grow profits, that's just how corporations work.
- I have a two panel system, and the panels are about 430 watts each. Given the current ToD rates for electric, it will take years to pay back.
Microinverter: 400 Panels (used): 250 for both Cables: 50
I also picked up two LiFePo4 batteries and two Kasa smart plugs and time shifted my computing infrastructure's electricity usage. That made much more of a difference in my bill, since a few hundred watts moved to .09/kwh. If the bms was smarter i could charge the batteries with solar, but alas i can't cap the recharge current.
by mannyv - The biggest obstacle to solar in the US: utility companies.
Ask anyone who has had a system installed. Your system can be totally compliant with national and state electrical code, installed by a competent installer using staff who are licensed electricians, get a stamp of approval from your own's inspectors - and the utility will refuse to connect it and insist you meet an additional set of their own conditions.
And there's nothing you can do about it. No appeals, no review process, nothing.
It's not even consistent, with utilities seeming to just obstruct for the sake of obstructing. Over and over I've of systems going in, the utility comes out (eventually) to inspect, refuses to connect. They're called back out, nothing has changed, and the system gets approved.
This is legislatures getting tired of all that power company bullshit, and bypassing them. As balcony solar rules hit state legislatures, expect some really absurd scare campaigns by power companies, and lots of lobbying.
Power companies see every solar panel they don't own as a threat to the profits they make on their fossil fuel power plants.
by KennyBlanken - You could do what I did and set up a zero net export system and just not tell the utility.by sfblah
- It should be noted that if you are willing to forego selling excess solar power back to the grid you can bypass the need for inspection or approval from your utility.
Put some (or all) of your circuits on a transfer switch or generator interlock and connect your solar system to that.
Then legally your system is the same as a backup generator install. It should have permitting and inspection requirements similar to those of adding a circuit. That will just a city permit and a city inspection.
by tzs - > Ask anyone who has had a system installed.
This didn't happen to me or anyone else I know with rooftop solar in multiple states, and I've never heard of it. What citations do you have?
by Panino - A single counter example: In East Bay CA. I designed and built my 9kw solar roof installation myself. No electricians at all. The process was very easy and working with my city and power company was simple, with no blockers at all. 4 years running. On a yearly basis, we make over double what we use. It boggles my mind how solar isn't on every house in the country.by ademup
- > Ask anyone who has had a system installed. Your system can be totally compliant with national and state electrical code, installed by a competent installer using staff who are licensed electricians, get a stamp of approval from your own's inspectors - and the utility will refuse to connect it and insist you meet an additional set of their own conditions.
Well, I am someone who had a system installed… I have a 14000 KwH per year system, and two 13 KwH batteries. It did take a while to get it inspected, which was annoying, although I was able to use it while I waited (I just couldn’t sent power to the power company until after), but they approved it the first time without any additional requirements.
What makes you so sure everyone has the experience you are talking about?
by cortesoft - This is going to be made legal in the UK on the 27th August. Max 800w inspired by Germany. I'll definitely get some panels and see how they go.by domh