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- Hacker News
- I would say that out of the box functionality (in the language itself or stdlib) makes a difference these days too. Older languages aren’t really subject to this, but new languages can be hard to justify bothering with if they require you to reach for third party libraries (and all the security issues, drama, etc those can entail) for somewhat common/basic functionality.
- Agreed. I think people tend to forget that:
you do not have to pick a single language. it is trivial to use another language just for that single library. there are many way to communicate, it is not like method calling is always the hard requirement
since you do not have to choose a single language, the killer feature of that language is mostly useless, even if there is no other language that have the similar feature, people would just write a some glue code to bridge it with their main codebase. and usually, there is no such thing at unique feature that only that a single language can have. sure, it can be achieved easier in that language for some use case, but even so, a single bridge file is probably enough. aka nobody would invest in your language.
writing software is mostly using other people libraries anyway. the thing we write the most is some common business logic, thus the syntax is extra important, or rather, the DX is the most important thing. heck if the experience is great enough I can throw thousands hours to write the libraries/frameworks myself, it is (usually) not that hard.
it always turns me off seeing a new introduced language that syntax wise is a carbon copy of rust or C. no thank you, if you not even want to think about the syntax, why should we believe that you can deliver something truly innovative?
by npn - I've also researched languages and written a similar piece[1]. Most successful languages had adoption momentum outside of the language itself. Conversely, there are many interesting failures—languages that were technically fascinating but ended up having their ideas stolen by later successful languages. A language isn't like a paper; it doesn't compete solely on the quality of its ideas [1]https://www.makonea.com/en-US/blog/programming-languages-are...by jdw64
- I wouldn't call it stealing ideas, all languages build on ideas from older languages. language design is more akin to a academic discipline building on top of each other, languages have lineages like a family tree. Language users have usually no idea about the ancestry of the language they are using. Like Ruby borrowed heavily from Smalltalk, nobody is arguing Ruby stole from it.
But I agree the adoption is the key factor, more people using a language grows the ecosystem and it becomes self perpetuating from there. This is why I disagree with the article, I don't think python is a good language but I still wrote hundreds of thousands of lines in it over the last decade, not because it's fun but because of its strong ecosystem fitting the task at hand.
by lyu07282 - Unfortunate how many languages with interesting stories were either glossed over or omitted entirely.
Clojure was an outright revolution against Java’s boring clumsiness, and many businesses are quietly making money with it today. Hickey even _explicitly_ comments on expertise (the OPs discussion about Rust and C++ being worth it) in the context of learning to play the violin.
Ruby declared itself as being all about “programmer happiness”, and while probably not as specifically a rebellion against Java, it attracted a ton of burnt out Java people who went on to found thousands of startups on Ruby. Ruby continues to be massive for web apps, Rails is still extremely popular compared to many alternatives.
Scala similarly to the previous examples was a Java-like with Haskell flavor that escaped an academic lab and accidentally took over the “big data” craze in the 2010s because they wrote Spark in it. If you were around then, Scala was truly hot at the time.
There are others of course but I found the examples in the OP a relatively surface level analysis of a space that has experienced an absolute explosion of diversity and novelty in the last 20 years.
by asa400 - Totally fair, but as I mentioned elsewhere, I left a lot of languages out in my consideration even when they're on my CV. Heck, I work in Java in my day job - I'm taking time away from it to write this comment - and realized after I'd finished my third draft that I didn't mention it at all. And I DO Clojure, have done Ruby, have done Scala (and will never do so again if I have any choice in the matter).
I could have gone into each language as a sort of postmortem - even for the ones that aren't dead right now - but for every one of them there'd be a host of people saying "wait, you're wrong" and they'd be right, and maybe I would be in that host saying I was wrong at the same time. (Again, see the footnotes: it's right there!)
But the piece isn't abotu a postmortem analysis of whether a language is fun or not - what I enjoy isn't going to be what you enjoy, nor should it be, and I don't care what you use, as long as you use it well and for the benefit of mankind.
by jottinger - >That quote is the article, and it's a little surprising that it's buried so far into the content
Is it really surprising in 2026? Today's online writing style is not primarily designed to communicate. It's designed to keep the reader 'engaged' for as long as possible. The reader's time is a resource to be extracted.
I'm absolutely not poking this author individually. It's the writing style of the net
by nyeah - Yeah, and I despise it. :D I purposefully expose the lede in my own articles early and often and as up front as I can make it - the editorial reviews keep saying "you should optimize for the clix, maing!" and ... no. If someone doesn't want to read the crap I come up with, I want them to know they don't want to read it right out of the gate, personally.by jottinger
- It's ridiculous to call Objective-C "a false start".
1) Objective-C is 40 years old.
2) Objective-C was used to create NeXTSTEP and by extension Mac OS X and iOS.
3) Objective-C is no more "awkward" than any other programming language. I actually prefer its verbosity to Swift's terseness.
4) Although Swift did eventually become more popular, the claim about Objective-C that "the moment Swift existed, it evaporated" is not only false but a gross exaggeration.
by lapcat - OP here: Fair. Yet I'd say that it's relatively rare (while being completely absent in my experience) that anyone would choose ObjC today - and the article even mentions Pascal as a stronger example of the model you use with ObjC. ObjC survives today, as does Pascal, but its strongest impact is through influence, just as with Pascal.
And languages being awkward is entirely a personal opinion, agreed. You might think in ObjC. I do not. There's nothing inherently wrong with either of us on those grounds.
by jottinger - The stewardship and economics of the language can also be the issue. I started coding in the 80's and so web development for me evolved at the inception of the field. I will go to my grave insisting that Coldfusion was a better platform than PHP, but it was always commercial with a financial barrier to entry. PHP being free led to a glut of PHP developers, low-cost hosting, and an enormous ecosystem that ultimately redirected the course of the early web.by 51Cards
- I'm calling bull on this. Learning languages, at certain points, is always tedious. Whether that language is a computer language, or something like Greek, there comes a moment where "trudging" begins. The reason a person "trudges" is that they have a goal in mind that makes the trudging something to endure until that goal is achieved. Fun comes from not having to solve the same problem sixty times, or having to sort through a million files by hand when a program can do it in 3 seconds.by thataccount
- Maybe not "fun", but people have preferences, not necessarily rational, in the choices they make. Programming languages, technologies, and even fonts.
Some languages are more enjoyable to use than others. I'm sure there are features/syntax/constructs in languages that you irrationally don't like.
by turtlebits - Hmm. I find learning fun, no matter what the scope is - even Greek, which remains obscure to me. (Quick, ask me something about Greek! I'll nod wisely and stroke my chin in deep thought and then get distracted and wander elsewhere.) But you're not wrong: there's a fun discovery phase, then a "hey, does this actually work" phase, and then a "crap, I need to figure out how to MAKE it work" phase, all of which are decision points where one might choose to not bother.by jottinger
- To add a few more exotic cases that affect things. Keep in mind that by default new languages fail. To succeed, many things have to all go right at once, and this implies that therefore there is not one single element that, if gotten right, means the language will therefore be successful (it's rather the opposite: If even one of the key factors is wrong, it'll probably fail).
* It's just a guesstimate, but one of those factors that caused java to be successful but-for (as in, if it hadn't had this, it wouldn't have been a success): It copies C style religiously anywhere it could get away with it. This caused some damage to the language that it has fixed in the past decade (such as the style and behaviour of `switch` being so bizarre - but it religiously follows exactly how it works in C!)
* Some languages end up failing partly due to community outlook. Scala is somewhat well known for having a core community that is highly aggressive and elitist, or to be a bit milder, to be 'less accepting of newbies with a limited understanding of programming concepts' than is optimal'. And in addition to that, they are in contrast to the java ecosystem ready to drop support for stuff quickly, meaning: Real life actual use of scala as a basis means you're either working with a hopelessly obsolete codebase or you're spending time refactoring it every other month pretty much. Scala's adoption is fading and never got anywhere near its hyped future.
* If a language is 'native to a platform' which I define as: "If the shepherds/owners of that platform were to write a basic app for their own platform, what language would they write it in? That's the 'native to that platform' language", then it tends to succeed even if it is not fun and not very well designed and even if transpilers exist. This is sufficient explanation for me for the success of javascript: It is the native-to-the-platform language if the biggest platform around.
These all fit within the thesis. They're all (last one is debatable) very human factors.
by rzwitserloot - On scala, I think there were several factors that led to it stalling out in the mid to late aughts. I am not convinced the community was the root cause. I think more significant was the scala 3 transition. When they were still near the peak of the hype cycle, the core team decided to spend more than five years rewriting the compiler. In my opinion, while there were good reasons to do a rewrite, they focused on the wrong things if widespread adoption was the goal. The biggest problems with scala were compiler and sbt performance, as well as related dev tooling. The new scala 3 compiler had to first approximation equivalent performance to scala 2 and they did nothing to improve the build system. In the meantime, other languages that overlapped with scala in various ways rose up: kotlin, typescript and rust come to mind. The unique value proposition was diluted, and the poor tooling experience persisted.
Now, that's not to say that the community was not also a factor in scala losing momentum. I agree with your take. At the same time, that elitist community was also building cool and useful stuff that significantly improved upon what was available in other ecosystems so I think it was a double edged sword. Even today, there are things that are easily done in scala that are useful, elegant and impossible to do directly in most of its peer languages. It may never have reached truly mainstream ubiquity but I think with better technical decision making, the language could have remained very strong its niche.
by thefaux - Yes to all that but still, my pet theory is that languages rise on one or two "killer features" that move the entire industry forward, and not the overall cuteness or lovability.
I can suggest a list of one killer feature per each popular language, i.e. things that these languages were the first to introduce and influence many successors:
C: extreme conciseness
C++: implicit destructors / RAII
Python: removed curly braces
Java: extreme portability
JavaScript: erm...
PHP: embedded in HTML by design
Rust: compile-time memory management
Swift: structured concurrency (pre-6 was probably just pure cuteness)
etc.
by mojuba - Swift: (reaon reason->) only Apple recommended language of choice for SwiftUI and iOS/macOS development.
Swift could be the worst language in the planet and people would still learn it. For considerable amount of time, its compiler used to timeout for many code-bases and people still gritted their teeth and learned it.
by lenkite - I like that theory, if I was going to counter it though, I'd say that I'm not sure those features match what language users talk about. For instance:
- C: Users often praise the simplicity of the language
- C++: Users often praise (not always praise?) the large feature set for a low level language
- Python: Folks talk a lot about "batteries included". Although in all honesty, I think having good interaction with other low-level languages is Python's secret feature.
- Java: Really leans in hard to object oriented programming
- JavaScript: Haha, you have to use it!
Not sure I'm really disagreeing with you though, but I think Java promoted its portability much more than it's ever been used (obviously there are cases like Spark which uses the JVM portability).
by benrutter - JS despite its (many) faults still allowed a fairly functional style way before that was mainstream. Java and C++ only got lambdas decades later.by chpatrick
- I believe JavaScript's was running in the web where Java could not (iPhones) or was considered too heavyweight (no startup).
Then it became the true extremely portable language, because developers wanted a single language to write webapps in, and it was easier to get JavaScript running on their server than a new language running on every browser.
- To have a theory of success, you have to also be able to explain failure. Why did object-oriented C (aka C++) take off but object-oriented Pascal (aka Delphi) not, despite the fact that Pascal was as prevalent as C in those days? Why was Python able to overturn Perl's dominance in the scripting space, but Ruby was unable to do so? Why did Ada and Smalltalk never achieve significant dominance?
A lot of success does come down to being in the right place at the right time. JS was successful because it was the only available scripting language for the web (although MS pushed VBScript for a bit) when there was a concerted effort to kill off the Java and Flash plugins. C was successful because it was tied to the Unix OS, which happened to overtake other OSes for a variety of reasons.
by jcranmer - C came with an OS. C++ came with compatibility with C and at the peak or near peak of OO hype. Javascript came with the browser making it probably the most widely available language platform. Swift came with Objective-C compatibility, an OS, and money (iOS app store customers spend more on apps than their Android counterparts).
Coming with a platform that is widely available or compatibility with an existing language on a platform was the killer feature for each.
by Jtsummers - C++ succeeded because it was Object Oriented, people didn't start talking about RAII as C++ killer feature until years later
python succeeded because it wasn't Perl's TMTOWTDI, everyone expected ruby to overtake python, but .. for some reason that never happened
swift succeeded because apple pushed it to replace objective c, that if you consider swift succeeded
anyway, i agree with your premise, languages need one key strategic advantage feature to succeed, but you just got it wrong on few of them .. and if i am wrong too, then the premise is weak, if we are not sure what the killer feature is, we then have no idea why the language succeeded
by systems - C is not "extremely concise". Lisp, and especially APL both predate C and are more concise. To me, the "killer feature" of C is UNIX, we can't really separate them, C won because UNIX won and vice versa. Other than that it is reasonably concise, reasonably portable and reasonably low level. The language itself doesn't have any "killer feature".
For Python, I think its killer feature, related to the removal of curly braces is that it is a dynamic language (like Perl) that forces you to write somewhat readable code. You have no choice but to indent correctly, and there is a strong "pythonic" ideal way of coding, the complete opposite of Perl's "more than one way to do it".
JavaScript killer feature is obviously its integration in browsers but it is also well designed for this task, with pretty good support for asynchronous programming.
Still, I don't think any of these languages were successful for their "killer features", more because of a combinations of many things. In many cases, they weren't even the first. For example, there are several langages that use indentation as syntax that predate Python. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-side_rule )
by GuB-42 - I was hoping it would address Lisp.
Lisp is fun. The interactivity and instant turnaround of a Lisp REPL is still rarely matched in other languages. Common Lisp also solved a significant issue other languages didn't address well until much later: the ability to write high-level code that was fast on cheap hardware around the turn of the millennium.
Lisp didn't get popular around the turn of the millennium. Success stories like Naughty Dog, ITA, and Viaweb were rare, and the dominant languages seemed to be Java and various scripting languages starting with the letter P.
by Zak - I often hear about lisp but never actually figured out what tooling you need Is it interpreted or compiled language? Why should I use it instead of any other languages?by Geof25
- Hah! SO MANY LANGUAGES got skipped, even from my own CV. I wanted to address Louis/II, for goodness' sake, but it's a CODASYL tool, and not a lot of people remember CODASYL from experience. (Nor should they: I liked it, but... nah, RDMS won for good reasons.)
Lisp is certainly fun, and it lives today and is influential today in multiple environments; I have a Clojure app I work on for my own amusement. And it does have commercial appeal, but it's limited; the three axis thing applies.
by jottinger - I really enjoy writing lisp but the ecosystem of libraries is a barren wasteland.
Try to find a TLS library for Common Lisp that doesn't rely on openssl, for example. Last time I looked the most mature library was marked 'experimental'.
by stackghost - Personally I think expressivity and type system power are what make a language "fun". If languages were video games, the Lisp family and Lean4 feel much more like an open-world game with many ways to play it like Factorio or Minecraft.
At the other end, Go would perhaps be the equivalent of an on-rails shooter.
And it honestly makes me disagree with the thesis here because "boring" unexpressive languages have arguably outperformed in terms of adoption for loadbearing software
by nylonstrung