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- Hacker News
- a bit rich since california is probabaly a major reason the systems are expensive to begin with.by butvacuum
- Why can't we do this for lumber. And drywall. And plumbing. And wires.
- Dimensional lumber, gypsum board, plumbing pipe, and electrical conductors are commodities. Heat pumps are not.
There’s no need to subsidize commodity items, there’s plenty of competition to keep prices reasonable barring any massive supply/demand shifts.
- I'm always amazed at how much these costs in the US. Wild prices even for a Norwegian.
We have a two-story home half his size, but one minisplit upstairs and one downstairs would be $3-4000 installed, combined, and that's upper or top-end models.
The ones I got would easily handle a house of his size.
by magicalhippo - If there's ductwork, it's something being installed into the building that has to pass inspections. It's not just one or two holes in the walls that need to be sealed.
- Same in Australia/East Asia generally. Had a mid range daiken 3kw unit installed upstairs last summer; $2500 AUD and ~5 man hours to install including roof access and exterior wall mounting. A bigger 7kw multi head unit would have been about $6-7k AUD but required awkward attic and wall access.
Installed prices in the US are pretty silly. Theres a bourgeoning set of DIY units that come precharged. But even those are pricey compared to the rest of the world.
by donavanm - It's one of the more protectionist industries in the US. At least it's not as bad as elevators, where imported ones have to be taken apart, so they can be reassembled by approved contractors.by dlcarrier
- What actually happened [probably], in California:
A heatpump salesman has a buddy that is a government official. Has outdated models he needs to liquidate. Salesman guy needs to be richer. Government official can't take the money directly, but sure would like to fly on salesman guys' private jet when they go golfing. Meanwhile government official guy goes and buys a bunch of Salesman company stock and profits explode.
Heatpumps should absolutely be the primary choice in the correct climates. But these deals are rarely good or efficient for a taxpayer.
by exabrial - California is trying to remove natural gas installations. Without natural gas, heat pumps are the obvious candidate to replace heating/cooling.by 0cf8612b2e1e
- >Heatpumps should absolutely be the primary choice in the correct climates. But these deals are rarely good or efficient for a taxpayer.
I'm amazed at the cynicism here. [thing] is objectively good, but it's still bad because government is involved and therefore corruption should be assumed? Even if we assume the government is corrupt by default, surely corruption that uses better technology is better than continuing to use the old technology? Otherwise we'd be continuing to burn coal because we wouldn't want the corrupt gas/solar companies to make money.
by gruez - Nah, this is a program that someone in CA put together, it’s not a government program iirc. It’s just a dude coordinating a group buy (which is great! Solar United Neighbors does something similar for solar, and it seems very effective).by ericd
- That you struggle to believe a government could ever operate modestly more efficiently, doesn't mean it never happens.by nitwit005
- I'm amazed by how difficult it is to get modern variable-speed heat pumps in California. You're lucky to get a two-speed unit, but they're only marginally better than single-speed. We're stuck with 80's technology because there's literally a list of what you're allowed to install. They claim it's to only allow energy efficient units, but the list is dominated by older inefficient models.
On top of that, you can't have just any contractor install it, they need to be certified to install heat pumps, and of course the ones who are certified will only install a heat pump they sell you.
If you want a modern energy efficient heat pump in California, without waiting forever and paying several times list price, you're going to have to install it illegally.
by dlcarrier - Heat pumps are probably vastly under-installed in the southern part of the US because natural gas has been cheap and plentiful. If you live where natural gas isn't available your fuel option is propane. Propane tracks the price of gasoline, perhaps slightly lower in my experience.
Here in Texas, electricity is only about $0.11/KWH so heat pumps work out like this:
Heat Pump 5.0 COP : $6.50 per MMBtu Natural Gas : $12 - $15 per MMBtu Propane at $3.00 / gallon : $32 per MMBtu
The unfortunate characteristic of heat pumps is that they become less efficient the more you need them, i.e. cold weather, but if weather is generally above freezing, heat pumps are close to their spec range that is based on 47F outdoor temperature.
A buried heat exchanger or a water well makes it a weather-proof geothermal system- this seems like the ideal; if you also need air conditioning it will make your cooling more efficient too.
by OldSchool - Modern heat pumps easily keep efficiency below freezing. Ours goes to 22F before there’s any efficiency drop. A different model goes below 0F (we just didn’t need it).
But yes, many makers push the crappier old tech models that bail around 50F.
by gwittel - California PG&E charges an average of $0.45/kWh. They know EVs are going to increase demand. They killed NEM1 and NEM2 to prevent folks from installing solar, and those with solar have to pay a monthly fee for the privilege of being connected. Heat pump my a$$.by SergeyKa