Join the discussion
Write your take first — we'll ask for email only when you're ready to publish.
- Hacker News
- What is with these personal attacks? I don’t understand the insistence that every educational tool must offer some perfect, complete learning experience.
I grew up in India watching the early Sal Khan videos because I preferred them. They complemented school and helped me understand things I’d ignored in class or simply hadn’t been taught well.
You can critique the limits of videos without dismissing teachers who have genuinely helped millions of people learn.
- This seems to be wrestling with the wrong opponent.
> And this is what I think the edtech world keeps getting wrong. The assumption is that if you can deliver the right content, in the right way, at the right time, learning will follow. It won’t.
I think it depends on the goals of the student and what you're trying to learn. Some things are procedural and can be learned by being told, some things require a more hands-on approach to really "get."
If I want to learn how to drive a tractor, I just read the Farmer's Guide to Tractor Drivin' or find a YouTube video (I learned how to drive an excavator and fell trees like this—watch and listen and then go do what they said; hot damn, I learned how to do it).
If I want to learn how to produce a modern masterpiece (or novel invention) in some field or art, I won't find the "how to" in a book or video [1]. That's very much a personal journey that can't be replicated or recalled as a series of steps you tell someone to follow.
The Sal Khan way is prescription-driven and has its place in the world and I don't think it should be dismissed. But that way won't give you the "10,000 hours" level of understanding or experience (and arguably, shouldn't be expected to—even in the shape of an intermediary chatbot).
by rglover - I have been using Khan Academy for over 7 years growing up. It has helped tremendously and taught me to be a critical thinker. There are exercises, quizzes, and unit tests to test a student's understanding and if they get something wrong, KA marks what videos or articles they should go back to and review. I agree with one of the commenters here, this article is uncharitable.by sudo_cowsay
- K.A. has always helped me immensely. Often I will add a video as a 2nd "I do" before our "we do." If there is extra time after small groups we typically answer the math unit questions as a class. Students are thrilled to come up in front of the class to defend thier reasoning before finally seeing if thier choice was correct.by hduto
- > What he has never had is pedagogical knowledge: an understanding of how people learn
As anyone who’s met Sal will attest, this characterization is incredibly off the mark.
The author extrapolated from the product as opposed to understanding the person and how the product came to be the way it is.
by dyarosla - Khan Academy has a problem lately:
Go visit a page like https://www.khanacademy.org/math/linear-algebra and count the number of:
It does not communicate that their primary goal is to educate, it feels more like the primary goal is fuelling the bureaucracy behind the charity.* cookie banners * donation panhandling modals * account signup widgets * gamification modals to tell you about leveling up * etcby PostOnce - To be fair, if they redid the linear algebra curriculum and included exercises, they could spin that up into a solid paid program.by barrenko
- Whenever this topic comes up I feel the urge to point out that not enough people have read Audrey Watter's "Teaching Machines: The History of Personalized Learning", or her blog. We might stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again if we did.
[0] https://direct.mit.edu/books/book/5138/Teaching-MachinesThe-...
by vanderZwan - My belief is that Khan Academy is tremendously useful when started at a young age and done consistently. I have been doing it for over 7 years and it was a huge portion of my childhood. Long term, consistent use of KA from a young age builds deep procedural fluency and (this is very IMPORTANT:) self-directed discipline that transform how a student handles complex concepts. Even though some critics correctly note and argue that automated drill and practice cannot replace creative, project based discovery and learning, daily mastery based practice eliminates foundational learning gaps (you get a solid understanding), lowers the anxiety around making mistakes (because you get used to repetitive practice), and automates core mechanics (it becomes a basic skill) until they become second nature. I believe that persistent procedural learning is very far from mechanizing education at the expense of real learning. Rather, it frees up valuable cognitive bandwidth and gives the precise structural confidence and fluency required to excel in open ended, high level problem solving that so many critics preach. This is my opinion as someone who did Khan Academy for 7 years (where I learned the procedural step by step learning and practice) and went to school at the same time (where I did the open ended problems and projects). I believe that Khan Academy will help millions of students learn and grow (and the computer programming community is great too!).by sudo_cowsay
- As someone who has earned over 3 million points on Khan Academy over a 3-4 year span about ten years ago, I am very appreciative of my experience. What I appreciated most is when Sal would derive formulas such as the quotient rule in Calculus from the power rule by using negative exponents. Deriving formulas rather than memorizing them opened up a new perspective for me.
This article appears to focus on the chat bot which I have not used and was not part of my experience. At the time, I had a subscription to Wolfram Alpha that was helpful if I got stuck on an intermediary step.
The high level of goal of the post which is directed at asking good questions raises a point that seems valid to me.
by tbonza - This articles core argument appears to be that a live instruction is better than a video because there can be feedback at the moment of confusion while a video can't. But that depends on student's impulse being triggered and I'm not sure if its any better or in some cases can be worse if the teachers content is not as thorough as Khan's or anyone else's video - as these benefit from a worldwide audiences feedback on correcting any confusing or unclear parts.
In the classrooms I see through my kids, the teacher is doing roughly what a Khan video does: walking through a worked procedure at the front of the room. If a video fails to provoke the "wait, why does that work?" moment, then a teacher following the same flow likely fails in exactly the same way as the author claims and missing the opportunity for hands'on learning. A video actually allows the learner to go back and review content if anything was unclear, and presumably any interactive AI agent can help with the feedback part even though the teacher in the video isn't.
I also wish the piece had stayed with Khanmigo, where nobody has a good theory yet on where the ai tutoring loop actually breaks and why people fail to engage it and that putting it in their face may not work, why exactly personalization at that scale hasn't produced the gains it promised.
Also irked by the title built on a pun on Khan's name, sets up an awkward framing that kind of lets me know it may not be unbiased.
by narmiouh - > there can be feedback at the moment of confusion while a video can't
LLMs are great at this. I’m sure they’re misused constantly. But if you ask the right questions, LLMs are excellent learning aides. Especially for symbolic reasoning like mathematics and programming.
by josephg - Is the article about something else than how math on Khan Academy was thaught?
I remember minimal videos (3-13 min, usually 5-8), and then exercises drilling the techniques until you understand it and don't make mistakes. If you got a perfect score (no mistakes whatsoever), you went a little faster.
That's learning by doing, or am I wrong? Or are there no exercises for things other than math?
by wafflemaker - Sounds like you should read the article if you have questions about what the article is about?by TheRealPomax
- I agree with you. It's just an attention bite as nobody would care about this article if it wasn't focused on something as big and popular as Khan Academy. It's clear that the author has never used it as a place to learn something.by Pavilion2095
- You are wrong in understanding the article.
Khan: Videos + rote exercises
Learning: Projects, complex problem-solving, exploration, argumentation, etc.
Dewey is worth reading.
by blagie - Yeah the article feels as though its describing Khan Academy from 10 or more years ago - it is quite odd.
"What he has never had is pedagogical knowledge: an understanding of how people learn, what motivates them, what makes the difference between someone who pushes through difficulty and someone who types “IDK.”"
It is almost as though the author thinks that Khan Academy is an organization of 1, and that they don't employ learning scientists and have a content team and don't publish research papers in the learning science field.
by kamranjon - From what I know of the Khan approach, it's akin to "flipping the classroom" [0], which has gained pretty wide acceptance. It was pioneered by Harvard physics professor Eric Mazur.
(I use the flipped classroom approach extensively. But the legal profession being the eager embracers of novelty that we are </sarcasm>, I refer to the approach as "enhanced Socratic method," given that Socratic method was something we all endured in law school.)
For math and engineering courses, the basic flipped-classroom approach was used at West Point for over 150 years: In the so-called Thayer method, students study textbooks in advance, then in class, they work on problems on chalkboards. The instructor moves from chalkboard to chalkboard, coaching the students in real time. [1]
(I do much the same thing in my contract-drafting classes: In small groups, students do drafting exercises using online whiteboards. I lurk on my laptop, quietly coaching in person as needed.)
[0] https://bokcenter.harvard.edu/flipped-classrooms
[1] https://flippedlearning.org/syndicated/avoiding-flipped-lear...
by dctoedt - Overall, I do agree with the thesis but:
> Now… how does Sal Khan want my kid to learn?
> Watch a video.
I find this a little uncharitable. I learned a lot of math at a young age from Sal Khan's early videos (back when he used to erase by switching to a black pen and scribbling across the entire screen) and, to put it in the author's terms, it served as an easy-to-digest scaffolding on top of which to build a deeper understanding. I don't think Khanacademy ever sold itself as a magic learning resource that removes the need to work out problems yourself.
by skulk - I think it is okay.
I have benefited a good deal from Khan Academy, and was quite disappointing to go back and see that they seem even more focused on showing videos than they did 10 years ago.
by wodenokoto - My understanding is that the idea behind Khanacademy is to switch the classroom -- learn a topic as homework; do the questions in the classroom. That way the teacher can assess (and help) the students.
The other idea is that a student only advances to the next topic once they've mastered the current topic (e.g. by getting 4/5 questions right). The theory behind this is that if you don't understand a concept/topic then it is harder to understand topics that depend on that.
This does mean that students will be at different topics/stages. But because of the structure of the teaching a teacher isn't moving on to a new topic leaving students to fall further and further behind.
by rhdunn - The article is indeed uncharitable. Nowhere does the article mention the fact that there are exercises AND that you can explore the website and the different resources in the way you like. You don't even need to watch videos if you don't want to.
You also do not need to linearly follow the topics/videos. You can take a few quizzes from some topic, notice you don't understand something completely yet and instead pick up more trigonometry instead.
I've worked through Khan academy in a way similar to what the author describes as a good flow, but then all within the Khan Academy platform. The platform even allows for discussions and questions.
To me the problem is much more that motivation or a destination is not something that Khan Academy will give you. Then again, so won't most teachers. I much preferred Khan Academy over most of my math teachers, but occasionally I've had teachers who helped me love a subject I barely knew beforehand.
by Nebasuke - Side note, but much as I like Khan Academy overall, I've always struggled with Sal's slow and repetitive speaking style in the videos.
"Now you add the five ... [pause] ... add the five ... add the five to the seven ... to the seven..."
Running them at 1.5 - 2x helps a bit, but it's still annoying to the point that I find it very distracting.
by jbstack - I don't agree and the hype surrounding his efforts was something much greater than what KahnAcademy actually is (a very useful resource).
He sold his vision in "The One World Schoolhouse" which was essentially global learning via all the best videos (and one unified curriculum) you can make and teachers effectively being technicians/teaching assistants. It was the vision that utopian minded technologists craved in the early aughts.
by fullshark - Khan Academy is a treasure, and is how I re-learned math in my 20s after not taking it seriously in school. Then moved on to MitX for science [re]fam.
I am having my kids learn math with Kahn academy if we don't have anything better by that point.
- Yes, exactly. I have also learned a lot of math, grammar, science, and other subjects from Sal. In most videos, Sal explicitly states to pause the video and try out the problem before he works through it. I do think that KA's style of teaching needs some getting used to (this was never a problem for me as it was one of my first teaching platforms). However, once you get used to it, it is a wonderful experience.by sudo_cowsay
- The attacks on Khan here personally irked me.
I grew up in a small rural town where math teachers were rare and good ones were nonexistent. I still remember watching Sal Khan's videos on calculus after struggling to get any grip on it from my frustratingly uninterested teacher who was forced into the position after our actual teacher retired. After I saw them I came back with a fire in me because for the first time he exposed me to the beauty of calculus.
This guy is completely wrong about Khan not inspiring students to care. Sometimes all students need is to see what caring looks like to ignite it in themselves. You can feel how much he cares just by watching him because the video is the product of all that caring, and he does it for millions of people.
But thank you to this blog author for being brave enough to call out Khan's failures, I am sure it'll help education much more than Khan did.
by mindwok