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- Hacker News
- > Because merchants charge everyone the same price regardless of how they pay, those fee costs are factored into prices for all shoppers. However, credit card users get that money back and then some through rewards, while cash and debit users get little or nothing.
>The result: People paying cash face the equivalent of a 26% higher sales tax than premium credit card users shopping at the same store.
I am surprised this never occurred to me or has come up at all in discussions with people (in the context of rising costs/inflation specifically). I’ve literally never considered this compounding effect until now. It’s so obvious of course, it just never even crossed my mind.
by Forgeties79 - Same, that percentage seems absurd though.by pistoriusp
- And there I was thinking it was obvious that merchants wouldn't just eat cc fees, and would cushion all prices to account for their costs.by nilamo
- It also means stratifying card users, even if you actually make all the card users pay more than those with cash. The people who can just barely qualify for a card are paying to fund the "rewards" for the wealthy who pick the best options.
"It's expensive to be poor" is a more or less universal experience under capitalism and it's amazing how many novel ways we've come up with to make it more expensive for poor people.
"Means testing" is one of the fun ones. The wealthy will often justify this as "People like me shouldn't get this help" which sounds even generous, and then you realise, oh, because we're testing if you're worthy to receive help now to get help you need to expend some time and effort to pass the test. When this "I shouldn't get benefits" is offered to you as a reason to means test, ask them why they're taking a benefit they don't think they should have and why they can't pay society back in other ways rather than inflict more misery on the poor...
by tialaramex - I believe a similar thing happened with fast food and food delivery fees. It costs money to be listed on the food delivery app so fast food chains started charging everyone the same price to offset the cost of being listed on the apps.by slicktux
- I was surprised by this number too - and I’m pretty sure it’s a clever wording trick to inflate the percentage:
> equivalent of a 26% higher sales tax than premium credit card users shopping at the same store.
I do not think the sale price is increased by 26% - which doesn’t square with a 1% to 3% fee - I think they pay approximately 26% more in “sales tax” so you’re paying 26% more than the 7% tax.
by r3trohack3r - Many restaurants I’ve eaten at lately surcharge credit cards with a 3% fee, offering a discount if you pay cash. This is the way to nullify this regressive policy until the US commercial banking system offers instant payments for merchants, internalizing the externality of the interchange fee. If you pay with card, you
US FedNow instant payments went live three years ago, and can move $10M per transaction for a few pennies per transaction.
FedNow Is Live - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36801491 - July 2023 (1022 comments)
(A gap in legislation was not mandating offering FedNow capabilities to your customers as a condition of your banking license as a bank; I expect this to be patched eventually)
by toomuchtodo - Credit cards also transfer wealth from people who pay interest to people who don’t.
It’s a silly system, where everyone has to invest their time (optimizing for rewards, avoiding interest) in an ultimately negative sum game. I hate it so much.
by nsedlet - Why is it so hard lol? I have the Bank of America Rewards card for 25+ years. 2.62% cashback on everything, 3.5% on dining/travel. Maybe there are better ones out there but this is good. I have auto-pay setup so I don't have to worry. I have not spent a second of my time optimizing anything in last 15 yearsby pathikrit
- Alternatively CC companies could cut off people over certain credit risk and then be able to charge interest in line with the lower overall credit risk…
Borrowers can also keep from overextending their credit and go on debit cards instead…
Obviously these things can have an impact on people but before the 80s credit cards were not widely available to people with high credit risk and the world still functioned.
by mc32 - Credit isn't negative sum, it is a positive sum game. "Negative sum" has a specific meaning here and just because wealth is being transferred isn't that significant; positive sum games also have wealth transfers.
It is risky and it is very easy to lose great amounts of money on a bad decision when credit is involved. Arguably that makes it bad. But still not negative sum.
by roenxi - Assuming you have sufficient income, paying your balance off in full every month and instantly redeeming the rewards each month doesn’t take a whole lot of time. I just use a card that gives 1.5% cash back.
- I don't have to invest any time at all. I just use the (US) card that gives me the greatest benefits, be it cash back or services. Usually I just look at the reward rate, which is a base 2% for me right now going up to 5% for some things.
I love it. As someone who never carries a balance I get paid by banks for doing pretty much nothing at all.
And I don't worry about US retailers, I don't live there.
I should add that rewards are not the best benefits. Sign up bonuses are much more lucrative, running to hundreds of dollars per card, and can often be repeated. Same applies to bank accounts.
by nutjob2 - I'm 46. I've never had a credit card. I have a bank account and a debit card. If I can't afford something, I don't buy it.
You can just opt out of using credit cards.
by ramijames - I gave up long ago trying to optimize any rewards, it just ended up being stressful and not really worth it ultimately.
Now I just use my apple card everywhere, pay it off every month and get whatever rewards I get.
It feels like a weird situation, those that stand to gain the most from credit cards are also the ones that should feel a difference of under $100 in rewards the least.
The one exception I see is bonus sign up rewards since those can be fairly significant, or making sure you use an airline card at the airline since those bonuses can be fairly significant (with sometimes other benefits). But outside of those exceptions, just choose a card with good rewards and stick with that and pay it off every month.
by nerdjon - Patrick McKenzie rebuts this here: (podcast) https://open.spotify.com/episode/2E2KRPcDvh1LcRw5bIsBms or here (article): https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/anatomy-of-credit-car...
The intuition being: people who carry balances and pay interest don't actually spend very much; they are not wealthy.
by delish - I always wondered why people in America would ever pay by cash or credit card - unless they are laundering that cash.
Otherwise, you're giving up 1-3% discount.
Set auto-pay on your credit card to pay in full every month. I've never once paid for credit card interest. I think there's a term inside credit card companies for people like me: leeches or something like that.
by aurareturn - > I think there's a term inside credit card companies for people like me: leeches or something like that.
that's some odd classism there.
credit card companies love your data. they can package it, sell it, analyze it.
this is real data of actual behavior, not whatever people say or click -- money where the mouth is.
even if they never make a cent off of you from an interest perspective they 1) still get fees from the merchants, and 2) get all of that juicy juicy transaction info -- and that info alone might be worth the costs.
- I paid a lot of credit card interest, as a yute, but, since getting married, I have paid in full. Been over 30 years. Leeches rule!
At one time, credit card companies forced vendors to charge the same, whether cash or credit, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
The problem is, is that cash is becoming less and less acceptable.
In a nearby town, you can't pay for parking, with cash. I have seen credit-card-only vending machines. A lot of restaurants have iPads at the table, and you never see anyone but the bus[boy|girl|whatever], bringing you your food.
- Most people can’t optimize for 1-3%. Life is flooded with 1-3% choices.
Even as someone who is a credit card optimizer, I also ignore numerous 1-3% choices a day.
Many people also spend more than they can cover on it.
by MattGaiser - Credit card companies are still charging merchants a transaction fee for your purchases though. The fact they're only charging one side of the transaction is probably annoying for them, but you still make them plenty of money.by onion2k
- This presupposes the ability to get a credit card and the confidence of sufficient funds when that auto payment hits.by strix_varius
- Well, one reason is the one described in TFA —- credit card rewards amount to a regressive wealth transfer, and if you think that is bad, you may not want to participate in it.
Another reason is that credit card companies sell your purchase data to aggregators and advertisers, and cash affords more privacy.
by dml2135 - > I think there's a term inside credit card companies for people like me: leeches or something like that.
They genuinely don't care because they offer different products for different groups of people.
Poorer people typically use credit cards to borrow money. The amount they spend in a month is typically much lower than the balance on the card. This means that the company makes most of their money from interest payments. Cards meant for this audience typically have few or no rewards, and instead use the interchange fees to allow for a lower APR.
Meanwhile, wealthier people typically use credit cards as a payment instrument. They pay off the balance in full each month like you do. This group of people is responsible for the majority of credit card spending, and the credit card company makes most of their money from interchange fees. Cards meant for this market have higher APRs, and use some of the interchange to pay for the rewards. The cards meant for the top end of the market with the best rewards (i.e. Chase Sapphire) even charge retailers more in interchange, with the argument being that it's worth it because you get to bring in wealthy people who will buy more stuff.
by ndiddy - When I and my (still fairly young) family needed to move cross-country, my wife and I accepted a credit card offer with 0% APR for the first year and put all our moving expenses on it. Then once we settled, we paid it down a bit at a time each month, and then right before it would have started charging interest we paid the rest as a lump sum.
Really helped us float the moving company and also some DIY renovations on our house that we didn't have all the cash on hand to pay for outright. And we didn't pay a thin dime for the privilege.
by cfiggers - From the study...
>When merchants raise prices for all consumers in response to these costs, users of low-cost payment methods (e.g., cash and debit) cross-subsidize high-reward credit card users who shop at the same merchant"
Cash handling is not a low-cost payment method, Cash handling can cost businesses between 4% and 15% of each transaction, when factoring in labor, security, bank fees, and risks like theft and counterfeit bills.
One could argue that credit card users have been lowering prices for cash payers as business avoid cash handling pitfalls and get their funds safer and faster.
by hnburnsy - Im really surprised the number of comments here who think the rewards are free money they're getting. The stores are paying 3-5% transaction fees for you to use credit cards then they give you 2-3% back and force you to spend it on things they deem can be redeemed. You're paying for that 2-3% back in higher prices for everything. The whole thing is a giant scam and should be shut down.by wookmaster
- At an individual level it is. I could use cash or debit card and get 0% back, or use a rewards card and get 5% back. Easy choice.by gblargg
- > force you to spend it on things they deem can be redeemed.
Cards that redeem to cash or payment credit are readily available. You only get miles or flooz if that's what you want.
The system is bad, but if I'm buying stuff within the system, a rewards card is usually the least cost out of pocket.
by toast0 - The cost of accepting cash is not necessarily lower - you have take into account higher theft risk, miscounts and cost of delivering it to the bank. Also there is no incentive for businesses to pass saved fees to customers.by sandmn