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- Hacker News
- For those who don’t follow human vs AI Go (I don’t), this is with a 2 stone handicap in favor of the human which is apparently standard.by shric
- Deep Blue vs Garry Kasparov (1997) and AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol (2016) marked the first defeats of a world champion by a machine in a chess or Go match. Coincidentally, both machines played an iconic move on Move 37 of Game 2:
• Deep Blue played Be4, declining a pawn capture to achieve a long-term positional advantage and fueling Kasparov’s suspicions of human intervention.
• AlphaGo played P10, a brilliant 5th-line shoulder hit that live commentators initially dismissed as a blunder or misclick.
https://franky07724-57962.medium.com/amazing-coincidence-in-...
by bumbledraven - I love this.
I watched every game years ago between Lee Sedol, even though it was late at night. I love AI and I love Go.
Off topic, but I wrote the first commercial Go program for the Apple II in the late 1970s.
- Apparently 2 stones is a huge advantage. An estimate is that the computer is roughly 4-600 ELO stronger on an even match.
Also, the human played a strategy tailored to that huge initial advantage. He said that the AI did not handle this particularly well, and played high probability moves instead of trying to lure him into a mistake.
Also, even though this was the best Go engine, it was not running on a supercomputer, and had a relatively limited amount of time per move.
So, this was an important victory for a human, but not a sign that humans are now stronger than AIs at Go.
by dlevine - KataGo isn't very good at exploiting weaker opponents. In chess people were convinced a grandmaster can never be beaten with a knight odds. It's just too easy to simplify the position and win. It was very easy (for a grandmaster) vs already super human Stockfish. It was still kinda easy (for a strong GM) vs 200+ ELO stronger NNUE Stockfish. And then someone made a net optimized for exploiting humans. Its games are amazing and it beats GMs with knight odds with ease. It's unreal how good it is at setting traps, playing lines that don't work in theory but the refutation is based on precise tactical sequence a few moves deep. Playing vs it feels like playing vs a spider that slowly weaves a net around you till you can't move anymore.
I predict the same thing is going to happen in Go once the engines catch up.
(You can play those chess bots on Lichess for free. Challenge LeelaQueenOdds or LeelaRookOdds if you are master level or stronger)
by bluecalm - The headline is a bit misleading, though perhaps not intentionally.
Shin took a 2-stone handicap from KataGo which means that Shin is the weaker of the two. But to give that more context, Shin is also the strongest human player to have ever lived in raw strength terms by a good margin, and is known as replicating AI move-for-move more closely than anyone else.
If they were to play even then there’s no chance any human could win (and pretty much all pros agree with that). Lee Sedol beating AlphaGo in game 4 of that series is largely considered the last time a human beat a modern AI in an even game, which is why it was so amazing.
RE the game, Katago was set to use the strongest available model and ran on a 3x 3090 GPU system, which is a lot for KataGo. 20 seconds might sound like a handicap, but that’s over 100,000 play out variations which is essentially infinite for modern KataGo models (anything over 10,000 is overkill).
Shin played well in all games, but his strategy was to avoid complexity. KataGo reads out complex fighting like an absolute monster, so Shin was trying to play very very solid and very very calm so as to not give KataGo an in.
The 2-stone handicap could be thought of as roughly 10-15 points of ‘buffer’. That’s massive in professional games, and that’s what Shin used to win. He played so overly solid that it sometimes cost a point or two, but it removed an opening for Katago to fight. He did this at the key opening and middle-game sections and never burnt through the full buffer of handicap points in the last two games. That’s why those games look kinda ‘boring’, it’s because Shin wanted them to be that way.
Also note that KataGo probably could have won if its ’variance’ was tuned higher (basically it taking risks). Standard KataGo won’t take risks, it just wins with brute force. For handicap games though you can tune its willingness to start fights higher to prevent people from just playing ultra solid (like Shin did).
Shin did an absolutely amazing job and he deserves all the recognition. Katago routinely beats professionals giving them 3-4 stones of handicap, so the win by Shin highlights to me how strong he is, but also just how well he understands how the AI ‘thinks’.
by PenanceAU - In Go, there are exchanges of plays called "joseki". Professionals consider the outcome of joseki to be an equal result for both players. Most joseki are only a handful of moves, but some, such as the "flying knife" joseki have variations that continue for upwards of 50 moves. A traditional 19x19 go board has 361 intersections.
Shin's genius was to play out a complex variation of the flying knife joseki that was, in essence, a one-way path to reach an equal board position that occupied about 1/4 of the board. Due to the 2-stone handicap, the position favoured black with the game ~25% complete. KataGo could not have played any other way, where a human may have tried to foil the plan by introducing further complications.
What was truly incredible was how Shin held the advantage from that point on.
by thangalin - It’s worth understanding that Shin Jinse has been significantly stronger than his nearest human opponents for a while now, more so than Magnus was even at his very peak.
In go ELO like scoring he’s something like 120 points over the next strongest player. No other player has ever broken a 3800 rating let alone 3850. Ke Jie (the previous long time champion) peaked at 3755. Shin Jinseo’s strength graph is the most absurd straight line.
2 stones is historically the gap between a 9P ranked and a 1P ranked professional player (very roughly the gap between super grandmasters and an almost grandmaster)
That is to say it’s shocking that Katago (almost certainly significantly stronger than AlphaGo) is a mere 2 stones stronger than Shin Jinseo. I suspect it would be 3-4 stones vs any other human pro.
by rao-v