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- Hacker News
- “LLMs are just X”, mostly with X = “next token predictors” is a common pattern to dismiss the power of AI with a very shallow understanding of how they really work.
It’s not wrong, but because LLMs are generators, and generation is a kind of prediction. And current mainstream models are autoregressive, which means they generate things one by one in order. But these trivia doesn’t tell us anything interesting about how they work or their limits.
It’s like saying a Boeing 777 is just a rotating machine, and it flies by just rotating some fins. Well yes, but no. With that level of simplification we’ve just ignored 150 tons of advanced engineering and physics. Similarly with token generator simplification we ignore a few trillion parameter Transformer. That transformer is more complex than a Boeing 777, and we don’t really know how it works.
A tiny ML model can do “next token prediction”. This is not as simple as that.
by ozgung - Describing it as a "next-token predictor" in the sense that this would mean it's fundamentally limited to just a fraction of an inferential step is doubly wrong:
1. In order to select even the first word of a meaningful sentence, it already has to have structure and meaning of what follows captured somewhere inside, mostly in it's weights/activations or indexed by it's state vector.
2. What you see when you use an LLM is not next-token prediction directly next to the prompt, but instead following a block of varying length of next-token prediction that happened to make progress on the problem in your prompt, and which just summarizes the results.
by mofeien - A better statement might be:
Modern agentic work is probably more of a "emergent system from simple rules and complex interactions" paradigm than a genuinely new technology.Current agentic systems may be *built* from next-token predictors which are conceptually simple, but because of agentic frameworks, recursive invocation, tool use, and *heavy* investment in reinforcement learning in these contexts and for specific applications, they can no longer be thought of as "Merely" next token predictors.by jvanderbot - It’s written in Claudish, or perhaps a human who has been reading too much Claudish recently. I am starting to become allergic to Claudish. Not there fully yet — but it’s at a tipping point genuinely worth exploring and worth being precise about.by teekert
- I'm not going to stop describing things accurately because someone generated an article that continually undermines its own main point. Limiting the way we talk and think about LLMs to a very narrow set of terms doesn't help us.
EDIT: gentler phrasing
by Planktonne - > Calling the second system a “next-move predictor” would be strange. It is not trying to predict what move appeared next in a dataset. It is trying to choose a move that wins.
i dont understand the distinction here. does working backwards from a set of win states instead of working forwards from the current state somehow change whether it’s a prediction or not?
by stanleykm - 'next token predictor' is a limited mental model but it's actually much better than any others.
'pattern matching' is a better intuition that 'reasoning' even though I think nominally, using the term 'reasoning' is perfectly fine in that context. It's just a loaded word that brings too much to the table.
'It hasn't seen the pattern' is a better description of the limitations of AI because it really just doesn't generalize very well at all. The adaptations described in the article don't change that.
Those are mutations, not expansions of capability.
by bluegatty - To be honest, I believe I get the point the article is trying to make, and to an extent I agree, but I also think the point is not really made very well.
The core of the argument as I understood it is that LLMs aren't just using existing data is training but also new ones. That's fine and good, and you can't simply assume an LLM is simply mashing together all it's data to give you an average of all that got fed into it - but at least I would still call it a "next token predictor"
It's not using just training data, but what it's doing is predicting the next token to get to the solution. As far as my amateur knowledge goes, LLMs still roughly go token by token, deciding which one fits best given the context.
It's just not predicting based on it's training data, but predicting based on RLVR & more, trying to get to the optimal solution ( as much as the solutions CAN be optimal)
And I honestly think keeping this very much in mind is helpful in understanding and dealing with LLMs.