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- Hacker News
- Will be talking about this in my robotics class. Here's my current indictment of FSD, hasn't been updated in a year but I'll add this one to the list:
2016 - Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash, U.S. Says - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/business/self-driving-tes...
2016 - Tesla working on Autopilot radar changes after crash - https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/16/tesla-auto...
2017 - NTSB Issues Final Report and Comments on Fatal Tesla Autopilot Crash - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339472/a-tesla-crash-bu...
2019 - Tesla didn’t fix an Autopilot problem for three years, and now another person is dead - https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/17/18629214/tesla-autopilot-...
2021 - Inside Tesla as Elon Musk Pushed an Unflinching Vision for Self-Driving Cars - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/06/technology/tesla-autopilo...
2021 - Tesla announces transition to ‘Tesla Vision’ without radar, warns of limitations at first - https://electrek.co/2021/05/25/tesla-vision-without-radar-wa...
2022 - Former Head Of Tesla AI Explains Why They’ve Removed Sensors; Others Differ - https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/10/31/former...
2022 - Tesla Dropping Radar Was a Mistake, Here is Why - https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/tesla-dropping-...
2023 - Tesla reportedly saw an uptick in crashes and mistakes after Elon Musk removed radar from its cars - https://archive.is/mL7zy
2023 - Elon Musk Overruled Tesla Engineers Who Said Removing Radar Would Be Problematic: Report - https://insideevs.com/news/658439/elon-musk-overruled-tesla-...
2023 - How Elon Musk knocked Tesla’s ‘Full Self-Driving’ off course - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/03/19/elon-mu...
2023 - The final 11 seconds of a fatal Tesla Autopilot crash - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2023/t...
I teach Tesla FSD as a cautionary tale of malicious business practices, how to deploy robots in the least safe way possible, and an anti-example of how to be a good engineer. It should be a crime to have as little a grasp on engineering and to have as much input as Musk does.
by ModernMech - As an avid fsd user, your list makes me more comfortable using fsd than not. If there were more you’d parrot it around, but in the end, fsd is safer than humans at the wheel. As much as you dislike it because of Musk, fsd will continue to march forward and improve and millions will use it. You are beta testing fsd even if you don’t want to be.by ronnier
- How the hell is Tesla (or any other car co) allowed to redact fields in a safety report as “confidential business information"? and how the hell are they still allowed to call this "FULL SELF DRIVING"by jhu247
- so they allow auto drive in non-approved areas?by m3kw9
- AI slop to the max, what a bad article.
Now on the issue itself: Why doesn't Tesla report the version and whether it was FSD or Autopilot?
by t0mas88 - It's electrek, 95% chance any front page Tesla negative story is from them.by kcb
- Because for some reason Tesla is exempt from reporting specifics about their safety reporting. Can’t possibly imagine why…by woodgala
- Do you know how humans run stop lights and kill people, how does it compare?
- We hold the driver accountable.by grim_io
- At least we can hold them directly accountable by the law.by fbrncci
- In many jurisdictions you can run people over and kill them and as long it was a normal lapse in judgement or mistake they cannot charge you.
Only if you intentionally drive recklessly, for example speeding and racing, is it easy to charge a driver for manslaughter.
by Footnote7341 - You're right, we should ban cars.
- Humans can go to prison [1], and depending on the state there are specific vehicular homicide laws or they are could be charged under normal homicide laws, specific statutes exist because vehicular laws can have higher punishment than typical negligence/reckless standards.
In California the charge can be anything from vehicular manslaughter to second degree murder, that means 15 years-to-life without parole, depending on other factors such prior(murder) convictions or if the victim is a peace officer and so forth.
In comparison self-driving systems do not have any punishment mechanism in the penal code. There is not even a well established liability standard, or ban/suspension threshold or any regulatory body equipped to audit a self driving system specifically [2]
[1] if found guilty - we may disagree on the mechanisms, effectiveness ,conviction rate and other details, nonetheless there is enforcement and there are going people in prison for this type of crime everyday.
[2] yes NTSB can do investigations but only for accidents (and give recommendations) and also has just 400 employees and $150M budget to cover everything from aviation to marine or pipeline and rail accidents.
by manquer - I can't help but think we need a more extensive "Flight Data Recorder" sort of object for, at least, self-driving cars if not all of them. Event Data Recorder's are coming and mandated for 2021+ but I think they need to go further, IMO. Police in my area already do not bother responding, and insurance just does 50/50 unless theirs dash cams. Why not just make them integrated and mandatory along with other telemetry?by maerF0x0
- > Reading a stop sign and deciding whether to stop is a City-Streets function, and that’s FSD. Basic Autopilot is built as a highway lane-keeping system, and it does not respond to stop signs. So a driver-assist car verified engaged as it ran a stop sign was, most likely, running FSD.
I don't understand this part. My understanding is the basic Autopilot is very similar to the what on other cars would be adaptive cruise control plus lane finding/lane keeping.
If so, isn't the expected behavior that if you do not manually intervene at stop lights and stop signs it will remain engaged and drive right on through?
by tzs - Yes, that's what autopilot will do. Even though I knew that with my tesla, I thought it could be confusing because the visualization does show traffic lights and stop signs and other cars/pedestrians. So a driver might think that if the computer obviously knows about the stop sign, it would stop there.
- > most likely, running FSD.
"most likely running FSD" so was it running FSD or are we speculating?
- Why didn't the driver stop and why does it say "a Tesla ran a stop sign" and not "a driver in a Tesla ran a stop sign" ?by prmoustache
- Because media isn’t a charity, it’s a profit-seeking business model. Outrage is profitable.by simondotau
- Tesla now has ~40 level 4 automated taxis in operation with no pedals or steering wheel. When these have an accident they can't blame a non-existent driver for mashing a non-existent accelerator pedal. And they are their own insurance company. A few fatalities in the Cybercab could squelch the whole rollout, even if the stats show it's safer than human drivers.
As a human driver with declining capabilities who will need level 4 autopilot before long to stay independent, I'm rooting for FSD.
by delichon - If they hadn't scammed millions into paying for the FSD scam starting Oct 2016 (see their "Driver is just there for legal reasons" video) - then there would be no headlines for a driver assist system occasionally failing like this.by jijojv
- This part is wild to me:
If true, how could the driver of the other car have been killed?> Subject vehicle (Tesla) pre-crash speed: 4 mph - possible if it accelerated after crashingby adgjlsfhk1
- I've had a pretty wild ride from being hit at probably less than that speed.
I'm sure you've seen video of the police performing a PIT maneuver. That's basically what happened to me--tapped by a car starting from a stop sign. They got a scrape, I got totaled. And, yes, it works as advertised--totally confusing, my foot somehow found the brake but I have no recall of doing so.
by LorenPechtel - 2-way stop and the other guy hit the Tesla at 40-60 no seatbelt?
That would track with the injuries in the Tesla as well.
Gotta come up with the energy somehow. If the Tesla doesn't have it the other car needs to.
- And all 4 Tesla occupants were injured. Something doesn't add up.by delichon
- I don't know anything about this specific case but this exact thing will be a major barrier for autonomous vehicles to overcome. Instead of benchmarking AVs against the current, human-caused number of vehicular deaths - people will naturally benchmark AVs to 0 and treat every instance of death as a failure of AVs, even if the reality is that AVs end up 99% safer than human controlled vehicles.by rco8786
- What percentage of road accidents involve broken down old cars, drugs and alcohol, irresponsible and risky behavior?
Because most of us don’t have that problem, and insurance stats suggest we’re a hell of a lot safer drivers than a hypothetical aggregate including stolen car joyrides by teens and 50 year old teetotalers in a well maintained, modern car.
by EA-3167 - Teslas do very badly when benchmarked against human caused deaths in similar (luxury) vehicles.by kybernetikos
- Another huge problem is that error rate it not error shape. We have an enormous body of knowledge and process for guessing what might cause problems for human drivers, how to deter the problems, and how to mitigate the damage.
For example, you'll have a pretty good idea how our fellow humans will react to rumble-strips if I describe them or play a recording. I don't need to consult a datasheet or design an AI test suite with a zillion simulations and a bunch of closed-course tests.
by Terr_