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- Hacker News
- > When charged particles moving faster than light travel in, for example, water, they perturb the energy equilibrium of the atoms that are in their way. In order to regain equilibrium, those atoms release photons – the types of particles that compose visible light, creating a “shock-wave” of visible light.
That's like the vaguest description of anything ever. Is physics a stealth startup?
Why does it specifically happen when particles travel faster than light in a given medium? There's no glow for particles moving slower?
by scotty79 - I think a common analogy is that this is a bit like the sonic boom when something travels faster than sound in that medium.
- I wonder if there could be something other than vacuum, in which light would travel faster.by HPsquared
- Probably not, to get light to move faster, you don't need a new medium - you just need less of the universe getting in its way.by ttyyzz
- Kind of, with trickery.
https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLig...
by anon48293 - Technically, no. However there are metamaterials in which certain wavelengths exhibit a negative index of refraction, which cause light to behave in some ways similarly to if it were moving faster.by aidenn0
- A general rule of thumb is that if something is glowing blue or has a blue halo around it, you should run in the opposite direction.
Unless you saw it from really close, in which case it's too late and you should probably relax, sit down, have a drink, call your loved ones...
by rbanffy - In that case, I'm afraid your phone possibly won't functionby toolsmax
- Or unless it's in water, in which case you're actually probably fine.by delecti
- Short of LINAC irradiator ride-through videos on YouTube, are there any photos of this effect in air from a point source?by xattt
- Several comments here mention that nothings goes faster than light in a vacuum, which is right. But... Putting aside all considerations of causality, if a particle was to go faster than light, it would also emit a vacuum Cherenkov radiation, as this particle would go faster than light. That would be a kind of supersonic bang. Some theories about this say that when a particle going faster than light, it loses its energy and emits photons. IANAP (yes, I am not a physicist), but I would love to hear a theory about how those FTL particles could be detected if they were to exist, and what could be the observation, probably coming the this vacuum Cherenkov effect. Again, I know this is against all physics, but the theory would be cool!by GlobalFrog
- I am willing to be wrong on this, as I’m not a physicist and I’m going from memory. But I thought that nothing could travel faster than light because spacetime is interconnected. So as something travels “faster” it is simply moving more through spatial dimensions and less through time dimension. Light travels completely through spatial dimensions, leaving no movement through time, which is why nothing can travel “faster” than that.
Like if I am walking North-East, I can change direction and travel in a more northerly direction or more easterly direction, but if I’m traveling North, I can’t change directions to travel any more in the northerly direction. I’m already traveling 100% in the northerly direction.
by 542354234235 - In water!
"In water" is the "In mice" equivalent for physics.
by baxtr - Not really equivalent because physics can model the difference between "in water" and vacuum quite well. Definitely far better than biologists understand mice and humansby adaml_623
- Technically it's any medium. The lower the refractive index, the closer the particle needs to travel to the speed of light in vacuum. But you can for example measure Cherenkov Radiation in the air (where n~=1.0003 or 99.97% of c) from highly energetic cosmic rays.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaging_atmospheric_Cherenkov_...
by sigmoid10 - To be precise, what we call the “speed of light” is the limiting speed at which information and causal effects can propagate through spacetime. In vacuum, it coincides with the propagation speed of photons, i.e. of light. In other media or under certain conditions, however, light can propagate at a speed lower than , without changing the fundamental limit imposed by relativity. So "speed of light" used to denote is a bit misleadingby fbn79
- I've no idea if they still do it, or if this was an option open to the general public or if it was a special thing for our group, but once upon a time, in my early teens, I got to tour NIST's test reactor in Boulder, Colorado.
At one point in the tour, they turned on the reactor, while we stood along the edges of the pool it was immersed in. Literally all that separated us from the magic of fission was about 5-6 meters of water. I still remember the electric blue glow of the Cherenkov radiation. Even with decades of life and experience and education between now and then, its hard to describe the psychic impact of observing with my own eyes something that I had heretofore understood to be impossible. Something akin to seeing Narnia through the wardrobe for the first time.
I was already into physics at that time (I had shadowed a sibling for a day at the University of Washington, and got to attend a lecture about nuclear fission a few years before in the physics-for-liberal-arts-majors course she was taking at that time), but this was quite something else. All of that to say, I already understood that dragons exist, in a manner of speech, but there's a difference between understanding it and feeling one's breath on your face.
by petsfed - > How can something travel faster than light?
> Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. However, in other mediums, particles can potentially move faster than light. For instance, while in water, light would instantly slow down to 75% of its normal speed, but there are other particles that don’t slow down as much and end up moving faster than light. Whenever that happens, a blue or violet glow occurs.
After reading this answer, I was not any wiser.
by chinathrow - In water photons travel at say 200,000km a second. Neutrinos travel at nearly 300,000km a second. That’s causes a blue glow. Which is how neutrino detectors work.by hdgvhicv
- They didn't word that very well.
Would have been clearer if they said "However, in other mediums (like water), particles can potentially move faster than light does in that same medium."
by georgemcbay - Yeah I didn't find that helpful. What I remember from Feynman's lectures is that photons still travel at "full speed" c between atoms, but if you look at the global progression of light as photons get absorbed then emitted it progresses slower than c.by cbolton
- How can something travel faster than light?
Answer: Light slows down when going through water or air or gas. It's only in a vacuum that light travels at 'c' (from Einstein's equation). And it's that speed c that is a limit due to relativity.
But the exciting thing is that when you're not in a vacuum particles can be traveling faster than the local speed of light (maybe 75% c). And that process of a particle zipping along gives off Cherenkov radiation.
I think of it as the light equivalent of a supersonic shockwave and sonic boom. Faster than sound gives noise. Faster than light gives light (or other electro magnetic radiation)
(People with more knowledge might say the sonic boom analogy is very inaccurate but not sure)
by adaml_623 - It took me a long time to develop an intuition for light and electromagnetic wave propagation, and I’m still working on it.
Fundamentally, changes in the EM field propagate always with the speed of light in a vacuum, i.e., c (also known as the speed of causality). Single EM waves propagate with exactly this speed and they do not magically slow down in a medium... they propagate happily at speed c! (FYI EM waves are more complicated like this and involve electric and magnetic fields evolving together).
But since EM radiation interacts with matter and this interaction itself changes the EM field again it results in more EM waves that propagate also at c. Hence, they propagate together and the net result be constructive or deconstructive as well as anything in between. If they have different frequencies, they can also create "interference" patterns or pulse envelopes that seem to propagate slower and even faster than c.
No doubt that the causes and effects are not easy to understand but always thinking in terms of changes in the EM field ALWAYS propagating at c helped me.
by prathje - > Single EM waves propagate with exactly this speed ...
Yes ... and no. Or we should say yes, but not necessarily forward. What about circular? What about ball shaped? What about a vortex? Any valid soliton is a solution and a single wave. Which means this is not just possible in water, but also in the electromagnetic field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=909o_kbCdFgll
Circular (as in 2d circular in 3d space) propagation in EM waves is like 2 waves in exactly the same location and direction, with opposite rotation along the axis. Which could be extremely useful since they propagate like single waves. In other words, there is a non-circular spectrum ... AND a circular spectrum. So, if we modify all radios we have double the spectrum.
by spwa4 - I dont think there can be intuition for this. How can one even imagine an electron "flying" through space, there is no measurable thing that travels, we can only see the disturbance of the surrounding space caused by it. But what is the it, does it maybe live in other dimension not accessible to us, or is there no it at all ? I gave up as a layman trying to understand any of this. Sure, there is math and you can somehow make some mental models involving 3d graphics and all, but that is not actually what is going on down there.by smnplk
- In a medium, this can create a "phase kickback" which creates a combined wave that appears to travel slower than the original one. The kickback is just the result of multiple EM changes propagating, i.e. the photons interact with the material, re-emitting photons.
3Blue1Brown has a beautiful animation for this phase kickback here: https://youtube.com/shorts/XIW-2ykgVPI?si=PJWiAC2BO7_xP0S6
by prathje - > changes in the EM field propagate always with the speed of light in a vacuum, i.e., c (also known as the speed of causality)
Speed of causality is a way more intuitive term.
Massless particles travel at the speed of causation in a vacuum. (Usually. Someone else brought up solitons.) Not necessarily in a medium. Trying to work backwards from speed of light to gravity propagating is tortured; understanding that gravity can't cause an effect faster than causality itself is more direct.
- The article has a section about what it can be used for, but only mentions the uses of the IAEA.
Of course I am biased because I work in the field, but the by far most wide reaching application of Cherenkov radiation is in the detection of high energy particles, particularly in astrophysics.
- Imaging Atmospheric Cherenkov telescopes detect the Cherenkov radiation emmited in the atmosphere when a high energy cosmic ray or gamma ray creates an air shower
- Water Cherenkov Detectors detect Cherenkov light when the secondary particles of these air showers reach water tanks on the ground
- Neutrino telescopes like kamiokande, Icecube and km3net detect Cherenkov radiation in water or ice produced by secondary particles produced by the rare interactions of Neutrinos in their detector volumes
Modern, high energy astrophysics is all about detecting different kinds of Cherenkov radiation and then reconstructing the original particle properties.
by maxnoe - As an aside, open core research reactors that glow are a very cool marketing tool for STEM. I went to a college with an open-core TRIGA run by undergraduates that loved to pulse it. It never failed to awe high school students.by nxobject
- Exactly! I visited HESS in Namibia last week, so Cherenkov telescopes are on the top of my mind right now.by fnands