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- Hacker News
- I'm not a very talkative person. I have a relative where conversations can go like this.
Me: "so are we getting lunch today?" Them: "well, I called your aunt and she didn't pick up. Then she called me back. Then she said X. Then I said Y. Then we did Z. {15 minutes of conversation later}. We agreed to meet at X for lunch."
I find if fascinating and quite frustrating but if I ask them to get to the point, they get frustrated and say "this is how I speak, just be patient".
by Ozzie_osman - I can understand, but I was taught, from an early age, about the importance of "small talk," and ritual, in communication, and interpersonal relationships.
I grew up in a number of cultures, where "breaking bread," was a common place for all kinds of negotiations, personal relationships, and diplomacy.
It's more than just "not having to talk about stuff." There's a shared ritual that's expressed by sitting down at a meal.
I still do that, to this day.
I worked for a Japanese company, and all sorts of stuff that goes on in meals (usually after work, and alcohol-soaked). Some cultures have fairly elaborate rituals around meals. They can become a required part of negotiations and diplomacy.
- > And this, too, was a bit of a revelation to me, that someone would not want to get straight to the point, that someone would need a nice long conversational warmup before they’d feel comfortable enough to be ready to talk about something more uncomfortable. I’m very much a get-to-the-point kind of person. I tend to say what I mean, or nothing at all.
I've worked for a boss like this once - he was the worst boss I ever worked for. There was absolutely no room for nuance in the conversations, no attempt to build rapport or a sense of shared understanding. It was his way or the highway.
Human beings are emotional, not rational actors. The "idle chit-chat" gets the foundations of emotional solidarity in place that make anything else possible. When you try to avoid it, you get an organization slinging daggers at each other because someone had the nerve - the audacity - to tell people what to do over an email without any room for them to respond and feel heard, never mind that, rationally, that's exactly what they were hired to do.
There is, of course, value in getting to the point - but only after you consistently build and assure and rebuild and reassure confidence that everyone is in the same boat together.
by solatic - Thanks to whoever posted this 11yo gem. I've never read it. Its humbling and encouraging to see someone willing to post his fumblings even in his 50's. I feel like he'd been lambasted or mocked had he posted this today on substack or twitter.
As a younger man I was more of the "Just say what you mean, get straight to the point" kind of guy. I think what changed for me is that I learned that people are often much more interesting than their opinions. Going to someone wanting one-word answers to everything (outside of a work context) can become very impersonal and extractive. Its reductionist. It's assuming you're the only one with deep thoughts, conflicted feelings on certain topics, and interesting opinions.
by momojo - Read it while you can, third-level .name TLDs are being discontinued next year by Verisign. [0]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.name#Discontinuation_of_third...
by ahyattdev - I don't think it's that people online need to have more unstructured discussion, or "not get to the point" -- it's that there's no real sense of community in a lot of online spaces. Why would I spend a bunch of time idly having Seinfeldian conversations with strangers with whom I have no rapport or continuity? The vast majority of people who will read my social media comments will be completely invisible to me. All the years of commenting and interacting online have predictably resulted in precisely zero lasting relationships.
If the point of not getting to the point is to build trust, then there has to be a relationship in which that trust is invested. Otherwise, not getting to the point is just more invitation for someone to take issue or dismiss what you're saying, to divert the discussion, or to completely miss the actual points you want to discuss.
by tyg13 - (Getting to the point:) I once heard a perfect explanation of the small talk phenomenon. It's like two modems establishing a link: they send to each other signals that are intended to asses how the line behaves, how well the other side hears you, and what it supports. Thus small talk may never be a pithy conversation: its purpose is to be a formal, predictable, zero-surprise exchange. Skipping it and going straight to the point may result in a badly botched communication attempt.by nine_k
- I think a more helpful frame is seeing this less as a practice of rhetoric and to instead see it as a practice of emotional maturity.
When you speak with someone, you likely are not aware of everything that is going on with their current emotional state. If they're having a good day or bad, if they even have had the time to build insight on it, what's nagging at them, etc. You may also not know where their ideologies, ethics, morality, etc are since these are only really shared with the ones close to them. And even then these shift and ebb especially if someone is at a formative time of their life (eg a college student).
So every initial conversation is a little back-and-forth of mapping this out, warming up, and saving the deeper stuff for later. It's a trust-building exercise where you suss out if someone will be receptive, if they'll validate your experience of the world or if they're more likely to be closed off and dismissive. Because the latter hurts and that hurt can last longer than you expect.
I personally don't find small talk rejuvenating and used to get bored of it quickly. I think the thing that irked me was that I always saw myself as open-minded and receptive and it felt like a waste of time, just get to the point, etc. But these days I'm keenly aware that we're not all at the same place internally and someone may have had some less-than-ideal experiences they're still holding onto. I can be sympathetic to that even if it means I'm bored for a few minutes of my day - it's really the least that I can do.
by paimapi